Portly Prout with a spare tyre problem

[jimp45]

I have decided that a Prout Snowgoose 37 catamaran would make an ideal cruising yacht in the Med. As it is likely that I will be buying a Prout in the UK my preferred way of reaching the Med would be via the French canals.

The problem is that the beam of the Prout is 15ft 5ins plus two rows of 6" wide
tyres, as fenders, give a total width of 16ft 5ins. I've checked Eloise_ex_Bambola's excellent site /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif where he states that there is a max beam width of 16ft 4ins for the "classic route".

So my questions are:

1) Compromise my fendering with slimmer tyres?
2) Find a wider route, if so what route?
3) Are the min. canal widths short choke points i.e. under a bridge or through a tunnel, or are they long stretches?

Lastly as bumps and scapes would seem inevitable, the rudders on Prout look very vulnerable to damage, is there any way to protect them?

If any forumites have experience of the French canals your advice would be very much appreciated.

Jim

 

[snowleopard]

I know this isn't the question you asked but a Snowgoose is a good solid sea boat so you could go round the outside in half the time and see a lot of great places on the way!

 

[Superstrath]

Portly? Not by cat standards. Not much wider than modern family AWBs.
I would imagine that the 16'4" is the widest beam of boat they will handle - so you should be OK. Don't listen to me though, the only canal I know anything about is Crinan!
Regarding the rudders, well they are vulnerable, but on any boat you would not want any part of it to touch a stone lock wall or even bump a pontoon. You just need to to keep an eye open and keep the back out of trouble.
Have you bought one, or just looking? Where in NW UK are you?

Alistair

 

[jimp45]

Hi Snowleopard

There will only be two of us for the most part and SWMBO is not an experienced crew (she has only sailed on charter yachts in the Med.). I feel that the French canals would be benign way of teaching her the ropes, whereas a force 8 in Biscay would lead to divorce or worst still having to sell the boat. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Jim

 

[jimp45]

Hi Alistair

I have not bought a Prout 37 yet although I have just viewed one that interests me.

I looked at Prout 33cs’s but felt that for the long term cruising in the Med. the improved cabin layout of the 37 would suit us better, especially when guests join us. However we are looking to start cruising next year, so this is early days yet.

I live in Sale just south of Manchester, which not the best place for anybody interested in cruising. I seem to spend all my weekends driving down to the Solent looking at boats. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I notice you own a Snowgoose I hope you enjoy sailing her, any tips regarding what to look for when buying one would be welcome.

Jim

 

[boatmike]

I have a Snowgoose 37 and have researched this thoroughly. I know of at least 6 other "Elite" models that have gone through without a problem and were it not for personal problems that have delayed me would be well on the way down the Rhone myself at this time.
Firstly you have two routes. One is the Canal du Midi where the locks are a tiny bit wider but it seems the traffic is very busy and the waiting time through the locks is sometimes horrendous. Then there is the classic route to Paris and then via the Canal Lateral du Loire Canal du Centre and down the Rhone. The minimum width of locks on this Route is 5.2 metres. Your boat is 5 metres. This means with a double ended hull form you have room for fenders forward of midships and aft of midships but none midships of any thickness. The important fenders (forget tyres you are not allowed to use them anyway as they sink if dropped overboard) are at the bow. Remember that you need fenders low down near the waterline as some locks will rise to the point where gunwale fenders will be useless. This calls for planks with foam behind or blanket fenders midships but you can use normal "sausage" fenders strung in a line forward of this and aft of this. Also remember that the Gunwale has a soft rubber fender all around the boat inset into an aluminium extrusion. I plan to allow this to take some of the knocks on the way through and replace it when out the other side. New rubber can be obtained from Wilkes Rubber at a cost of about £130. In fact the Elite was designed with the canal locks in mind and thats why that rubber fender strip is there! The 5 metre dimension is actually over the outside of this fender strip. Below this you have a hull which actually reduces in beam so that at the W/L you have room for a hanging plank with foam behind. What you do need to do is to tie the planks fore and aft and pull them tightly in to the hull sides with a longitudinal rope. Recess the plank where the rope goes to stop it rubbing on the wall! The peniches that commonly traverse these canals have a beam of 5.02 metres. The beam on these is defined by a very heavy steel and wood block (sometimes rubber) fender all around the boat at just above the waterline. This means that if whatever system you employ does not exceed this dimension you will clear the same as the peniche does. Sounds scary at first but as I say you are not breaking new ground here. It's been done before.
Your question regarding rudders is understood but I have never found it a problem. There are plenty of boat designs where the rudder pretrudes past the hull and unless you are a very clumsy "parker" you should not have a problem. In fact the stainless steel step above it is supposed to offer protection but in fact is not big enough to do so. Worry not. I have never hit mine and don't expect to but when Mediterranean mooring it is best to go bows in rather than stern in as a precaution. Finally Snowleopard is quite right that you can happily go down the Portugese coast but personally I look forward to the trip down through France as an experience in itself and it's lots quicker if like me you are heading for the Ionian and want to get there easily during the summer months.. Finally don't forget that you need to get your ICC endorsed with the CEVNI exam to go through the canals. Don't worry about it, it's a doddle but I would advise you do it anyway as there are some useful; things to learn that are not immediately obvious and not covered by the Yachtmaster syllabus. If you have any other questions PM me. I have all the drawings of the Snowgoose on file as I built mine myself. If you wanted to loook at any I am in the Solent area. Again PM me.

Have fun! May meet you en route!

Mike

 

[snowleopard]

Quite understand. Biscay was the first long trip for my swmbo but we had a flat calm. We didn't meet gale force conditions at sea until the return from the Caribbean. Unfortunately the last couple of legs were a bit grim so she's dragging her heels on the next plan /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Superstrath]

I don't want to be picky or anything, but Sale is hardly in the North West UK! You are welcome any time though, if you want to look or ask. The boat is co-owned by a brother who lives in Wilmslow - gets to Ardrossan in about three and a half hours.

Alistair

 

[jimp45]

Oops Alistair, Iv'e just changed my profile to NW England /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[jimp45]

Many thanks Boatmike for your detailed advice.

I am looking pre Elite Prouts 37’s, which I believe, are about 6" narrower in the beam, which should help.

Jim

 

[Birdseye]

We bought a 33cs for the med, after looking at both the 37 and the 33. We chose it because it was amply big enough for 2 plus visitors, and it was easier and cheaper to moor / maintain and manoeuvre. The temptation is to get as big a boat / as much space as you can but this is a mistake in my view. Life is for living not boat maintenance and cleaning.

We've now sold the boat because we decided that long term cruising was not for us (bit boring and samey), but after 7 years ownership I am convinced that the 33 is the ideal boat for long term cruising. Ours also had a hardtop which, were I again in the market, I wouldnt dream of buying a Prout without.

The 33 sails much better than the 37 - not just my view but that of the builders. As Prouts added more weight and finish to the original 35 and 31, the sailing performance deteriorated.

Despite their reputation, Prouts were not that well laminated and the dreaded O is a problem with some. Factory built boats sell for a premium because they are a known quantity. Home built are an unknown quantity. Check the bonding of the bulkheads to the hull sides.

We crossed Biscay because I was much more frightened of the peniches than I was of the weather. We did the French coast down to the Gironde and then across to Bilbao. Would do exactly the same route again - the crossing is short enough for the weather forecast to be reliable. What was said above about the consequences of getting SWBMO caught in an 8 is absolutely right. Whilst we were there, there were 2 sad boats harbour bound because SWMBO was not prepared to go any further after the long route Biscay crossing and bad weather..

 

[boatmike]

The pre-elite Snowgoose is a doddle to get down through the canals. Hundreds of them (literally) have done it. It is also true that with a standard rig the old snowgoose is faster than an elite. Mine has a tall double spreader rig to compensate for this. This is assuming that you don't overload it with stores of course. The 33cs is good too. For an open-sea boat the elite is better in anything over a F6-7, beneath that the elite is slow (compared to other cats) My normal cruising speed in 20 knots of wind is only about 9 knots. With 10 knots of wind it's about 5. The difference is that in a F8-9 I can still sail at about 8-9 knots relatively comfortably when the standard snowgoose is crashing around and having her speed reduced significantly by sea state. Neither boat has much bridgedeck clearance so wave height with both is significant.
If you are going through the canals to the med I would probably not think the significant extra expense of the elite worth it frankly. For the Bay of Biscay.... well I'll keep my elite.......

 

[jimp45]

I looked at a 33cs because I felt it would be easier to handle. However I felt the lack standing room, storage and doors on the rear cabins (on the ones I viewed) would compromise the privacy of our guests.

I must say you have worried me with your comment on poor lamination and osmosis. It is my understanding that all hulls were professionally manufactured for Prout and the only amateur input was in fitting out, under Prout supervision. I also thought that osmosis was not a problem. Whilst I not saying your wrong, I would like to here other peoples comments on Prout construction.

Jim

 

[boatmike]

I was involved with Prout over quite a long period. Like all boat builders they have had bad patches over their 40 years of trading but in my opinion their layup was as good as most and a damn sight better than some. I have seen boats with osmosis from just about every stable. I don't believe Prouts suffer more than others but what I have seen are many boats that go ocean cruising and end up in the warm waters of the Carribbean or the Med and don't get hauled out every year. This will indeed promote osmosis. When buying a boat, (any boat) try and ascertain it's history. Where has it been? Has it been hauled out every year? Also importantly, has the bottom been epoxied from new (good) or has it been epoxied as a repair (bad) Either way don't be scared off any particular make of boat by such hearsay evidence. Any serious osmosis will be found by a good survey and if a boat has stood up to it's life so far without problems it will continue to do so.

 

[boatmike]

I missed the second part of your question.
Prout mostly moulded their own boats but over time have sub contracted to others, in the UK USA and SA.
Fitting out standards at Prout were always pretty good. "Amateur" builds vary of course. I consider mine to be superior to Prouts own, but I have spent half my life doing just that for other people so mine is a bit like a builder who builds a house for himself. I have done things that Prout themselves would not consider cost effective. Others are built very badly by people who took no advice and have no skills to speak of. Your surveyor will report on the shortfalls of these boats if he is any good (find one who is a specialist in cats) and you can make your judgement of value based on that. Sometimes perfectly sound boats have been finished badly and can be bought cheaply. They can then be cosmetically "restored" to a high standard of finish by a handyman owner or even professionally to advantage.
See as many boats as you can before buying, it's a buyers market at the moment. Take advantage!!

 

[jimp45]

Thanks

Many thanks to boatmike and the other contributors for their help and good advice.

 

[Birdseye]

Dont be frightened by my comments about osmosis but do be careful. My 33cs had it and so did another 33cs I looked at at the same time. Both had been moulded by a subbie, and had not been well done. Some dry mat etc.

The prob with osmosis in a cat is that the laminate isnt thick, so peeling has to be done carefully and even then the strength suffers a bit. In Prouts the problem is made worse by the water tanks moulded into the keels - you cant epoxy coat them inside because there isnt an epoxy that is safe for use inside water tanks (or there wasnt when I was looking). So the problem could return in that area. You cant get fabricated tanks to fit that convoluted shape, and bag tanks arent really an answer either.

I understand you comment about headroom. It is limited on the Quest, but the flip side of that is much reduced windage. And windage can be a prob when manoeuvering. Which is why I would never consider one of the very high bridgedeck French cats.

You dont really want doors on cabins. They reduce ventilation which you need in the Med and they add weight which you dont need. You cant ever be private in a boat anyway - try breaking wind in the heads and see if anyone doesnt hear you!

The Silette leg though crude is a cracking system. Good for performance when lifted, good for handling when vectored, but maintenance intensive. Ignore this at your peril and check the state of the leg carefuly when you buy.

I might have mentioned a few probs, but having had a Prout I would still buy another for the sort of use you plan. Good boats.