Portland Bill E to W

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I plan to head from my home port of Portland Harbour to Dartmouth on Thursday 23rd.

However from reading up on the rounding of Portland bill, it looks as though the fact that Portland will be at HW at 0930, I shouldn't round until HW Dover which is much much later. This would mean that I'll arrive at Darmouth in the dark - something I'd rather avoid if I can.

My simple mind tells me that the best time to be at the bill would be local HW or LW but clearly this isnt the case?

Unless anyone can offer any advice to the contrary, I'll be leaving at about 0700 to head south for, say 10 miles (avoiding the bill and the race), before tacking and hopefully laying Dartmouth in one. I know I'll have the tide against me as I cross Lyme bay, but I want to be in late afternoon / early evening.

Anyone got any bright idea's or suggestions as this will be the first time I cross Lyme bay.
 
If heading west around Portland bill you should leave Portland or Weymouth in order to round the Bill during the early part of the ebb. The ebb starts 5 hours after HW Devonport ( 3/4 hour before HW Dover). The ebb will then carry you well clear of the Bill before the start of the flood.

Its the time of the start of the ebb that is important not the time of local HW.

I dont have tide times for Devonport or Dover to hand for 23rd but if looks as though the time to round the Bill will be soon after 1230 hrs. At 0930 you'll have about 5 knots of tide going the wrong way!


The inshore passage is only suitable in settled weather and lies between 1/4 and 1/2 mile off the Bill. Do not be tempted further out and into the race.

You should study the tidal stream atlas and be aware of the eddies that form, to the east of the Bill on the flood and to the west on the ebb.
 
That was my thought (though logic told me otherwise, hence the thread)!

It looks like I'll be heading out of Portland harbour on a bearing of 138, then when level with the bill (and past the shambles) I head south for 10 miles. That way, my next tack will leave me 47nm due east of the entrance to the Dart, with the SW F4 which is promised at the minute, I'll be able to sit there at 5.5 knots (with roughly equal tide for and against me).

So my guess is that I'll get into the Dart early evening. Just in time for a pint.

That is unless someone can arrange for the F4 to come with some east in it please !!!
 
Why not night?

There's a lot to be said for going with getting the tides right at Portland and then as much as possible across Lyme Bay and not thinking too much about night and day. Dartmouth is pretty ok for getting in at night with well lit buoys and a very well lit harbour and town.

A lot of the time when I've crossed Lyme Bay (admittedly mostly in smallish and therefore slow boats) I've tended to choose the tide that gives me darkness in the bay when there's really nothing around to worry about and dawn-ish at Dartmouth/Brixham/Torquay) or well before dawn when the passage has been faster than planned.
 
Rupert,

I thought about a night crossing for exactly the reasons you said. However as I'm doing this alone, I dont want to risk attaching the tiller pilot and then waking up at the Mewstone!

Plus, given the rain forecast in the weather I dont fancy a night sail. I'm up for star gazing when it's clear but being wet and sleepy doesnt sound like a good night to me!
 
Well, tide around the bill will be against you until about 11.45 & it will be pretty strong as it's a big tide :(
Think I would aim to round at 11.45 & then make use of the tide, should make Dartmouth latest 21.00, depending on weather.
 
Time & Tide

Dover - Thursday 2009-07-23
Sunrise 5:07 BST, Sunset 20:54 BST
Moonrise 6:51 BST, Moonset 21:30 BST
High Tide: 0:27 BST 6.78m
Low Tide: 7:52 BST 0.54m
High Tide: 12:49 BST 6.87m
Low Tide: 20:14 BST 0.33m

You have GOT to go with the flow, any alternative just isn't an option.
Getting to the Bill around mid-day and say ten hours to Dartmouth gives 22:00.
Sunset 20:54 so there will still be a a fair bit of twilight on arrival and Dartmouth is lit up like a Christmas tree!
From Weymouth, taking an 'outside' passage round the Bill will add a good 3 hrs to the trip and you would probably want to go East of the Shambles as the West side will be lumpy and push you on, which isn't fun.
Try this for a solution - The tail end of the West going current is about 4Hr 30 after HW Dover, about 05:00. Sunrise is about 5:07, so you will head down the side of the Bill in twilight and be in Dartmouth for tea time :)
 
Try this for a solution
Click to expand...
If you are suggesting rounding the Bill on the last of the morning ebb it is not a good idea.
You do not want the tide to turn foul until you are well clear of the Bill or you risk simply being carried back eastwards again. That is why all the advice you'll find suggests rounding as soon as possible once the ebb starts, Certainly within the first couple of hours. That then carries you out into the middle of Lyme bay where the flood tide will not be so strong.


Re going 10miles south of the Bill. That sounds further than necessary but I dont have any charts or my tidal atlas at home. What do others think?
 
From Weymouth if the weather dictated going well offshore off the Bill rather than taking the inner passage then I would be looking to stay in Weymouth!

Aim to round the Bill close (very close) at around 45 minutes before HW Dover, then pass a little bit up the west side before turning off for Dartmouth to avoid being carried south into the race. It is 42mls from the Bill to Dartmouth approaches so 7hrs at 6kts, not too difficult with 6hrs of favourable tide and an hour of not a lot.

As has been said, Dartmouth is easy enough at night. Set an approach wpt clear south of the east side cliffs and Mewstone on the leading light sector and another in the entrance in the same sector and use those to line you up as you enter. Once in the river the street lights give enough light to see what you are doing and probably easiest is to anchor in the pool opposite the main town.

Oddly enough we will be coming in ourselves on the Friday night (July 24th) at around midnight or a bit before having come, weather permitting, straight from Poole. In our case because we are coming from Poole the inshore passage round Portland is of little use and we will aim to pass around 4mls south of the Bill but we usually get within 10mls of Dartmouth before losing the tide but we are probably a bit faster.

The wind may well make life difficult for you, it usually does, but in general terms stay out when the tide is helping and go more into Lyme Bay when it is foul. Failing that treat this as a 'delivery trip' and motorsail across to stick to a straighter track and tighter schedule.
 
dt49nb said:
I plan to head from my home port of Portland Harbour to Dartmouth on Thursday 23rd.
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't have the UK tide tables to hand and anyway you've had some very experienced advice already. The only points I'd make are:-

a) You must go with the flow
b) Pots are a huge issue -- HUGE -- around the bill and Shambles. You must have daylight there. They tend to get dragged under the water at full flow
c) Lyme Bay and Dartmouth are easy peasy at night. If there ever was a harbour you'd enter at night it would be Dartmouth. You used to be allowed to anchor in the middle -- though check with the HM. Possibly there is somewhere he'll let you drop the hook until after breakfast? Or tie up to an arrivals pontoon. We prefer the northern side -- down by the chain ferry.

Pots are your only real problem, if motoring, and they can be a real problem. Lyme Bay has a completely unfounded bad reputation. It is just tedious.
 
Time and tide

Given the timing etc, I am going to leave at 0700, but wont be heading around the bill.

The forecast gives a southwesterly all day so I'm going to be beating all the way whatever time I head out. Therefore I might as well put in a lot of south (ie past the bill and the shambles) and then tack to make Darthmouth when conditions allow.

If I aim for the east marker at the shambles, the tide will have a lot of east in it still so I'll be carried a safe distance from the shambles - once level with the cardinal buoy I'll put in as much south as I need before tacking as above.

I guess this means I'll get in to Dartmouth early evening ready to have the pint I mentioned earlier in the thread !
 
If you want to do the crossing in daylight then 23rd is the wrong day for you to do it. Change your plans. Either pick another day where the tides are right for you or go with the ebb.

Do not underestimate the tides around the bill - even 10 miles off. You should have the weather and tides dictate your passage plans and not you own desire to be somewhere on a certain day. IMO with the criteria you have posted, I repeat that, the 23rd is not the day to go unless you change your departure time or destination.

|I have a similar problem right now as I’m in Portsmouth and would like to be in Lowestoff on Sunday but looks like I will not get there with the forecast so I going to go elsewhere (or nowhere).
 
There is no comparison between arriving around 22.00 when it will not yet be completely dark, not that it matters with an easy entry like Dartmouth, and flogging strong tides by leaving at the wrong time. The tides off the Bill are very strong even 10mls south up to 4kts, more at times. and your southerly tack at the start will actually take you more like south east so this plan is akin to flying from London to Paris via Amsterdam, do-able but rather daft.

I will repeat what I said before, because of your stated concerns treat this as a delivery trip, motorsail to lay the course if needs be and round the Bill inshore at midday. 42mls motorsailing at say 5kts boatspeed but a good tide with you for 6hrs shouldn't take more than 8hrs and you arrive in daylight.

Your choice of course but if your mind is made up why ask for advice? This is I understand your first time across Lyme Bay, so wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to do it the conventional way rather than by making it a whole lot harder for yourself? Anyway safe trip whatever you do.
 
dt49nb said:
Given the timing etc, I am going to leave at 0700, but wont be heading around the bill.

The forecast gives a southwesterly all day so I'm going to be beating all the way whatever time I head out. Therefore I might as well put in a lot of south (ie past the bill and the shambles) and then tack to make Darthmouth when conditions allow.

If I aim for the east marker at the shambles, the tide will have a lot of east in it still so I'll be carried a safe distance from the shambles - once level with the cardinal buoy I'll put in as much south as I need before tacking as above.

I guess this means I'll get in to Dartmouth early evening ready to have the pint I mentioned earlier in the thread !
Click to expand...

Today is the 17th. You are planning to leave on the 23rd. That's in six days time. You cannot plan a sailing passage like that as forecasts are not that good...you have to learn to do it "on the hoof". Being from that area anyway I'm sure you know that a young well-maintained engine, a good anchor and plenty of warp are absolutely vital for your safety. I have always had the engine running when we have passed round that area. I motorsail to ensure that I am exactly where I want to be at an exact time. I do the same in the Channel Islands. There are those who are far cleverer than I am who can do it all under sail but I find as a short-handed sailor that it is wiser (for me) to keep the thing to exact waypoints and exact times to match the tide.

Tides run fast round there, watch it. If you get a pot round your prop give the CG a call immediately, to advise him of your status. If the tide turns it can take you onto the Shambles....not good.

It's just that bit -- around the Bill -- that is the problem. The rest is easy.

Enjoy your holiday! I'm sure you will :)
 
I think I might have to go with public opinion and take the inshore route around midday. I do want to make it into Dartmouth before it gets too dark, though am not enamoured at the prospect of motoring for 8 hours - but if needs be I will.

Can someone please arrange for a bit of east or north to be in the breeze ?

A good chunk of my nervousness about the bill is the idea of picking up a pot marker with my prop !!!!
 
Sorry to rain on your parade but I would never do the inshore passage single handed simply because of the pots plus they are very much in evidence several miles either side. Do you have a rope cutter fitted as that could mitigate some of the risk
 
Iota - if you read my last post, you'll see that that is a big concern!

As for my rounding time, after looking at the conditions, I might duck out of work on Tuesday and do the passage then.

That would allow me to round a couple of hours earlier and also there is a F4 SSW forecast, so once clear of the bill and all the fun it promises I'd be on an easy fetch and could sit there at 6 -6.5 knots.
 
I’ve just typed all this out before I saw that you had changed your mind but here it is anyway.

I have to agree with everything the others have said.

I have made exactly the same passage on several occasions. On all of these except one, I have arranged to leave Weymouth on a day when I could arrive at the Bill near ‘slack’ water at around 5.00 to 6.00 am and then catch the best of the west going tide into Lyme Bay.

On the one occasion when the tides were similar to your proposed trip, I sailed a night passage arriving at around midnight at the East Shambles buoy as the tide was about to turn in my favour (meeting the Condor there at the same time – gulp!). If you decide to make a night passage, check your insurance as mine does not cover me for single-handed sailing at night.

Your plan will eventually get you to Dartmouth but you will find it a very long and depressing slog. You are arriving at the Shambles just as the tide reaches full strength and as has already been said, this will probably scupper your plan to aim due south. Without checking the fine details, this adverse tide could effectively lose you about 8 miles which you will then have to claw back. If you arrived at a better time you could benefit from the tide maybe to the tune of an extra 5 miles.

I have the feeling that if you left later and used the inshore passage (weather permitting) you wouldn’t arrive at Dartmouth much later but would have a significantly shorter passage time – important if you are single-handed. If you have timed your departure correctly, you will find plenty of other yachts near you. If you don’t see anyone, start to worry!

As regards pots, it is a valid concern but I have always had my engine off but instantly available. I am probably better off than some in that I have a saildrive with a folding propeller close to the trailing edge of a fin keel so the propeller is relatively protected from snagging under most circumstances.

Spend some of your hard earned pennies on ‘Inshore Along the Dorset Coast’ by Peter Bruce which you will find very helpful particularly the information about rounding the Bill. The local chandlers are bound to stock this.
 
dt49nb which is why I posted, I share your concerns. They are very real. In certain lights the pots can be very hard to pick-up with two sets of eyes. We have always motored round so the genoa doesn't get in the way.
 
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