Portishead - Marine handyman recommendation?

[vodzurk]

Hi all,

Has anybody got a recommendation for handymen, in particular, engine-based?

Wouldn't mind having our cooling system checked out, possibly whilst looking over their shoulder to get a bit of learning in.

Have checked the raw water intake strainer, impeller + oil + coolant was changed 4 months back (and fluids level still full). Lots of water is being pumped out whilst running.

(its a Penta AQ151, 35 yr old, sterndrive)

Am now out of ideas for why the temperature gauge touched red on our last 90 min outing (not going overly fast, mostly 50-75% throttle), though was rather lumpy water). It's leaving me nervous about pushing further out.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Did it just touch red and drop again or did it hang about up there? Has it been ok since? It could have just been a bag getting caught. It happened to me on my first outing, over heat alarm went off, did all the checks, couldn't find anything and it's not happened since.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have an aux outboard on a boat especially if you fancy longer trips.

 

[bitbaltic]

Possibly some leads in this thread:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?55496-Volvo-Penta

Post#9

"If your looking at boats with these engines check the exhaust manifold for corrosion. A bad case will let raw water sit in exhaust ports on the rear 2 cylinders. Which will eventually trash the head. It will also cause the engine to run hotter than it should."

Probably should have an engineer to look at it. There's a Volvo dealership at Portishead isn't there- shouldn't be expensive for an opinion at least.

 

[vodzurk]

Did it just touch red and drop again or did it hang about up there? Has it been ok since? It could have just been a bag getting caught. It happened to me on my first outing, over heat alarm went off, did all the checks, couldn't find anything and it's not happened since.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have an aux outboard on a boat especially if you fancy longer trips.

I've been meaning to get an aux... just... even with what I see as a fair amount of money coming in, I think this is getting a bit ridiculous cost wise (yeah I know, Bring Out Another Thousand, etc). The longest run we've taken it so far is basically a 7 mile round-trip... trying to push down to Clevedon, but can't seem to time it with good weather / less-lumpy. After that we'll consider Cardiff. With the engine serviced so recently, and fully inspected, surveyed, eeeeeverything... I'd hope that I'd not be unreasonable for expecting it to be good to get us to Cardiff and back a couple of times. I want to get this hobby started soooo bloody much... but new radio, survey, engine service, gas system refitted, gas certified, backup handheld DCS VHF, 12 months of mooring up-front, all lines replaced, new side-windows, hatch resealing, new anchor rope/chain, etc etc... when amongst this do I actually get the experience of being out on the thing?!? And don't even get me started on finally figuring out how to raise/lower the engine and use the trim tabs only to find out they don't seem to be working, probably because I've not used them in the 8 months its been in water... arrrrgh! (engine is all the way down, where it'll have to stay for now).

(sorry, rant over).

I've been cross-posting over on the general forum (link: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?485418-Easiest-dumbest-question-ever-oil&p=6165696&posted=1#post6165696)...

I think I'll drag the missus out at the weekend and do some donuts for 15-90 mins outside Portishead... to see if like you say, it was just a glitch that doesn't occur again. Imagine the radio chatter will be like "Portishead to Gorjus... WTF are you doing?" "Gorjus to Portishead... DONUTS! It's all this boat allows us to do!"

If it does occur, I think my next bet (after speaking to an ex-car mechanic who I work with) seems to be the raw water heat exchanger being clogged, or the pipes to/from it. No idea yet how to scrub this out... am thinking to take the water filter out and mash a bottle brush around the inside.

 

[vodzurk]

Possibly some leads in this thread:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?55496-Volvo-Penta

Post#9

"If your looking at boats with these engines check the exhaust manifold for corrosion. A bad case will let raw water sit in exhaust ports on the rear 2 cylinders. Which will eventually trash the head. It will also cause the engine to run hotter than it should."

Probably should have an engineer to look at it. There's a Volvo dealership at Portishead isn't there- shouldn't be expensive for an opinion at least.

Argh.

Yes, I remember seeing signs for Volvo on the side of the "Advanced Marine"... will give them a shout at lunchtime. My single previous visit to the shop seemed a little expensive .

 

[vodzurk]

Have now got Advanced Marine booked to give it a swill out and check it over next Friday.

Hopefully it won't be too expensive, as I'd like to be able to have somewhere to turn to and trust for the bazzillion future issues on this and any subsequent boats. It seems having a constant list of "things to tick off" is part of having a boat... it's never perfect, as much as we'd all love it to be .

 

[rgsmg53]

This is probably a bit late for you but a word of caution based on personal experience of both the marine "engineers" based in Portishead. Personally, I wouldn't use either again. Neither of them start or finish when they say they will - a nightmare, particularly if it's an out-o- the-water job. And once they've finished, the job is only "OK" - certainly not excellent.

In my experience, prices are on the expensive side of reasonable but not prohibitively so.

In the case of Advance, keep your eyes and ears - and common sense antennae - well tuned and don't be fobbed off. Make sure what you are told makes sense. As a retired professional engineer myself, I have been astonished at some of things I have seen carried out by Advance.

In one case, I'm firmly of the opinion that a recommendation was made with Advance's (and Honda's) profit margin in mind and not in the best interests of the customer - but I emphasise that in this case I did not commission the work.

If I need engine work done that I cannot do myself, I go much further afield and happily pay the travelling costs.

I hope that someone else will post some positive comments for balance but I have yet to meet anyone who is 100% satisfied with either.

From what I've understood of your problem, I would expect to see liberal use of hand held temperature measuring equipment to help diagnose the problem area. Should a suggestion be made that your recently-serviced engine in beyond economic repair then make sure you get a second opinion before going any further.

BTW your "rant" above pretty much mirrors my experience in the first 8 months of a new-to-me boat! It's the nature of the hobby unless one has pots of money and buys nearly new.

Best of luck with sorting out the problem. Do let us know how you get on.

 

[rgsmg53]

Just remembered - there is someone on the Motor Boat forum who goes under the name of Volvopaul. He is an engine specialist who I think often travels between the south coast and the midlands.

He appears to be very knowledgeable and many forumites speak highly of him. As far as I am aware, he is an independent engineer / installer.

I have not used him myself - I decided to go for a MoBo that did not have Volvos - but I did have a brief e-mail discussion with him earlier this year regarding the possibility of an engine survey.

Might be worth contacting him. I have no connection with him.

 

[vodzurk]

Thank you, I very much appreciate the warning. It's kind of what I was trying to ask without looking too bad in case they were reading. Have already had one experience in their chandlery that didn't fully match up with what I believed (they strongly indicated that powder extinguishers for the engine bay were illegal, and that I must buy their £250 gas-based extinguisher, which they immediately dropped to £200 when I couldn't afford it. I didn't buy.)

I've only got it booked in, without a lift out. Still a week to wait so could cancel. Already I'm worried because I specifically asked for the raw water system to be flushed, and she wouldn't give me a price because the engineer hasn't seen the engine to know what needed doing.

Thing is, if I'm ever up s**t Creek, I might need them (as they're near), so must tread carefully.

Will tap up volvopaul. Anybody know any Portishead local handymen?

 

[rgsmg53]

I'm afraid the shop staff there are pretty unimpressive. A couple of years ago now I wanted a Honda outboard serviced. Although it was a bog standard 5HP Honda, she insisted that I provide the serial number and loads of other info before she could even give an indication of price. I dug it all out and, surprise, surprise, never heard from them again.

In contrast, I phoned up Golden Arrow Marine (yes, I know they are in Poole but I was going that way). They gave me a max quote over the phone and booked me in the following week. Final invoice was reasonable and less than the agreed limit.

Re the pricing of your flush: If it were me, I would insist on knowing what he would charge for a flush. Advance are agents / dealers and as long as your engine is a standard one (and even if it is not), a flush is a relatively simple procedure which they should be able to give you a fixed price for up front.

I fully understand your need to tread carefully but it's not as if you entering into a dispute (yet!) with them. All you are expecting is the information up front that any customer should expect from any supplier.

And if you are worrying about "emergency call out" in the future then, if it was me, I would much prefer to get, for example, towed back onto a safe berth and then think about how and who best to go on from there once some of the pressure is off. A couple of years ago I had an overheat alarm go off just as I'd left the lock. The marina staff were very helpful and gave me priority in the next lock in despite it being a busy one.

 

[vodzurk]

All good stuff, muchly appreciated.

Just had a brief call with someone who last serviced the engine for me... and no flush was done, as it's not a standard thing. I get the impression, though he wouldn't say it (small community) that he felt the same about a certain company.

He recommended:

- Buy salt-away online.
- Get a spare hose.
- Make up saltaway solution in a bucket.
- (Run engine until a little warm) - from an online source.
- Turn engine off.
- Figure out which hose feeds in the raw water to the pump.
- Disconnect at the pump end, not the transom.
- Jerry-rig the spare hose, to the pump, stuff other end in bucket.
- Run engine for 15 seconds.
- Turn engine off, wait (as specified on instructions).
- Hook back up as normal.
- Run engine to flush.

Think I'll cancel the engineer booked for next week and give this a shot myself.

Anybody know if spare hoses are all a standard size? (will get it all ordered at lunch).

 

[vodzurk]

Engineer cancelled.

Salt-away ordered from Amazon @ £11.55 + extra £5 for expedited delivery (I just wanna get this sorted asap, the days are getting shorter!).

Wooden bung set also ordered... in case anything goes pear-shaped! (already delayed buying some after being told I should have a set onboard regardless).

Now just hoses to figure out... will have to get myself down and measure the width of the existing hose asap.

 

[rgsmg53]

Do you have the manual for the engine? It might be helpful. There might even be a 'troubleshooting' section with some recommendations. If you don't then I'm pretty sure most of them can be got online. I seem to remember I found some when I was considering a Volvo-engined boat. Start at the Volvo website and work from there.

I think your DIY route is definitely the best way forward - even if you don't solve the problem, you will become more familiar with your engine and also you will have the confidence of knowing the job has been done properly - quite apart from the lower cost. I think the bungs are a very good idea but if it is the raw water inlet presumably there will be sea-cock and then a strainer before the pump inlet. Have you checked the sea-cocks operate OK? If so, just closing the inlet sea-cock will (should) allow to you to remove the inlet pipe with ease. If your inlet sea-cock is not working properly then be very careful!

Keep the bungs near to hand though. (I usually have a piece of rag about the size of a tea towel handy as well. There is very little static water pressure at the inlet sea-cock so 'stuffing a rag into the hole' is quite effective if it all goes wrong and will give you time to sort yourself out without getting too wet or filling the bilge.

I have to confess that I'm not familiar with Salt Away but the US applications on their website look impressive. My only comment would be that it might not tackle severe encrustation very effectively. But at that price, it's definitely worth a try.

 

[vodzurk]

Thanks for your advice and tips .

It looks like the earliest I'll be able to get onboard again and check everything is gonna be Friday due to work... but will check for the inlet sea-cock. I think whilst I'm there, I'll get a few dozen photos of everything so I can try figuring things out remotely in future.

I've found an online copy of the AQ151 Operators Manual online. Seems the only thing relating to engine overheating is:

Blockage in cooling water intake, oil cooler, cooling jackets, damaged impeller or thermostat, too low coolant level in expansion tank.

I've found the Workshop Manual too, which has two pages on overhauling the heat exchanger... but ripping the whole thing to bits looks a bit too much for my experience!



Will the outlet also likely have a sea-cock? Am thinking I could cycle it through via a bucket instead of fill it once and out it goes. Just in case a second, longer attempt would prove more effective at getting any gunk out.

Hopefully it'll do the job. As I've mentioned, the engine maintains a normal temperature at idle... which my colleague reckons proves that the thermostat is working, and the cooling system... just when load increases, it's not effective enough, hence cleaning needed.

What've I bought myself into!

 

[rgsmg53]

Please forgive my ignorance but is the AQ151 a petrol engine with a leg? If so, then I would expect the exhaust to exit via the leg with the outgoing sea-water cooling water being injected into the exhaust gas flow. In this case, I would have thought there would not be a sea-cock on the exit but I may be totally wrong.

Also, is the engine indirect-cooled? If so, I would be tempted to start with the fresh water side and flush and replace the water / antifreeze mix.

You say the engine does not overheat at idle but gets too hot once under load. FWIW I had an overheat problem with a Beta 43 diesel (indirect cooled) which was perfectly OK at idle or pottering around inside the marina but which set off the overheat alarm within minutes of opening up the throttles. It transpired that the sea-water cooling inlet was severely restricted with marine growth and it took an out of the water job to rectify. (Don't ask how it came to be like that - it's a very long story!)

Congratulations on going the DIY route. I'm assuming you are a Portishead berth-holder. I'm away for the long weekend otherwise I'd offer to come along to offer moral support.

 

[vodzurk]

Yes, petrol with leg. I think I read somewhere that it does indeed have the sea-water feed out through the leg. Jacuzzi style.

I was wondering if it went out of the cooling block by tube towards the leg... with a potential stopcock on it somewhere to allow it to be disconnected within the engine-bay. Will find out tomorrow . If that's the case, then I can cycle the fluid a bit and saturate it multiple times.

Regarding the fresh-water-side... this will have been done as part of our service at the start of the year. But hey, given the price of this not being resolved, you're probably right in just getting it sorted... I'll look into that this weekend too. Is there somewhere on-site that we can dispose of anti-freeze?

The sea-water cooling inlet... yep... am aware that it might be clogged... am hoping not though... would prefer to leave her in the water until the end of the season. If I can figure it out, colleague reckons stuff a high-pressure hose on the out-pipe from and try to blow it out from the inside with tapwater. Might be worth a shot if I've picked anything up that's stuck in a bend.

I'm terrified of losing her for months as "marine repair time" seems to flow a lot slower than regular human time. I have a niggling worry that we may end up with a lift out... I think the stern and trims are locked in place currently (probably due to disuse from our nervousness about initially pushing too many buttons)... but they both seem set for a level ride up to 15 knots so hopefully will manage until our end-of-season lift+scrub+maintenance. I know, big problem if we end up beached on a sandbar .

Yep, am a berth holder. We've got a wonderful spot that's wayyy wayy too far from the toilets after a few beers (D51 I think, in front of the slip/crane). Am planning to make it to the hog-roast next weekend (though annoyingly won't be able to drink due to work having me on-call), so might see you there?

 

[Lioness]

I have a similar problem on my 1994 Volvo Penta 500B petrol engine on an outdrive leg, fine at tick over to 1200 revs and starts overheating as revs increase.
I am now going to check that the engine water circulation pump (inlet flow, raw water pump and impeller are fine) is not damaged as I had a failed water pump on a Transit van that caused these exact same symptoms once. May be worth checking your circulation pump if a clean and flush does not remedy it?

When my leg trim stops working it is normally a corroded contact(s) on the relays or relay connectors, may be worth checking the electric connections on yours?

 

[vodzurk]

Thanks for the heads up .

Any thoughts on how to check a water pump?

Yep, it muchly seems to be a sequence of gradually increasing price investigations...

1. Check seawater is flowing out the back (the jacuzzi is on)
2. Check seawater filter is clear.
3. If temperature rises when idling, consider checking thermostat (temperature levelled out with me, hinting that the thermostat and coolant is working, to some extent).
4. Check oil / freshwater coolant levels.
5. Change freshwater coolant.
6. Flush seawater coolant block with something that eats salt + other crud (Salt-Away arrived today).
7. Attempt high-pressure back-flush of inlet pipe (through the clear pipe, not through pump or engine).
8. Check water pump (unknown yet to me how to check this).
9. Lift out - Check in/out seawater pipework has no blockages.
10. Replace termostat and pump, just because we're running out of options.
11.... dismantle engine?

I think at #8 onwards, it might be a proper engineery type that I have to commission. Hopefully I won't need to get to that though .

 

[andrewbarker]

+1
Difference between VolvoPaul & Advance like chalk and cheese.
Advance "serviced" my outdrive - new impeller, housing, bellows etc. 6 months later, leg had a worn out impeller, cracked pump housing and broken stud. Bill for £000s.
VolvoPaul real quality bloke. Although he's south coast based, I'm sure he would advise on a diagnostic process to follow. It seems to me that you could waste a lot of money chasing likely causes without a expert like Paul suggesting a sequence - even if you do it yourself. Why not try a pm?

 

[vodzurk]

Good call, will do tomorrow (probably gotta work late tonight).

Edit/update: PM sent .