Port Vauban Lease Renewal Costs!

[danvan]

So.....all the leases down in Port Vauban, Antibes, are up for renewal at the end of next year and, as you'd expect, the port have been busy trying to sell new 10 & 20 year leases.

Having been quoted around eu22,000 at Port la Napoule for my 22m Prestige, I thought that Vauban might be a little more than that, but not much. The quote I received was in fact just under eu500,000 for 10 years or eu1,000,000 for 21 years - so around eu50,000 pa!

They were apparently giving 10-20% discounts on this up to a year ago, but no discounts available now..........

I wonder if this makes Vauban the most expensive port in mainland Med now (and by some margin)?!

 

[Bouba]

So.....all the leases down in Port Vauban, Antibes, are up for renewal at the end of next year and, as you'd expect, the port have been busy trying to sell new 10 & 20 year leases.

Having been quoted around eu22,000 at Port la Napoule for my 22m Prestige, I thought that Vauban might be a little more than that, but not much. The quote I received was in fact just under eu500,000 for 10 years or eu1,000,000 for 21 years - so around eu50,000 pa!

They were apparently giving 10-20% discounts on this up to a year ago, but no discounts available now..........

I wonder if this makes Vauban the most expensive port in mainland Med now (and by some margin)?!

Will you risk a long lease when the restrictions for your size boat are increasing ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You've found out what I already know. My lease in Port Vauban runs out at the end of next year and I've been quoted around €1m for a 24m berth and there's no way I'm renewing. They have reduced the max beam allowed on a 21m berth so my 20m boat is only allowed on a 24m berth which annoys me even more. As you say €50k pa is way above the equivalent rental rate. Yes Port Vauban is a great place to moor a boat but not at that price

As Bouba says, with the recently introduced anchoring restrictions for 24m+ boats along that coastline potentially being extended to smaller boats in the future, you have to question whether its even worth buying a long lease on a berth there

 

[markc]

My lease expires at the end of this year and they were offering a 10 year extension up until last year but I didn't realise that they would withdraw it. Looks like we're going over to annual if we like it or not. Thankfully not at the same level as PV!

 

[Portofino]

I have touched on this before esp PV .
Its a kinda retribution @ PV for the previous incumbents lack of investment since they got the initial concession , in the 70 s or when ever ?
If I recall in typical Fr fashion “ Paris “is at the top they issue the concessions via a intermediary level of committee consisting of local stakeholders.
PV failed to keep up investment in the infrastructure so Paris has added a catch up sum .To be added on , the prescription done by the middle level .I recall a new hotel , sailing academy, swimming pool + much more inc a food village .
Its suppose to draw more folks into the town and add to the Antibes experiences wider development plan .Sort of catch up .
I saw the figures a few years ago as had a minor role in looking at a tender to take it over .Our Marina management team were invited to tender .We looked and once we saw the €130 M cap ex .....ran !

Can not remember the exact date circa as far back as 2016 17 ? When the Mayors office where installed to run in the final few years .The old management team were ousted .
The same retribution, or cap ex number s were prescribed by “Paris “ to them all , all the concessions coming up .
So the numbers are PV €130 M of cap ex .Or were when we looked .I have the prospectus still somewhere?

Just to give some perspective the others were teens like €13M or single digit .One the next nearest to PV iirc was only €29 M .

So that €130 M or so has to be passed on to the berthholders .
Every time I have raised this on here I have been knocked back with the standard “ boats move “ or “ PV is such a great place they dare not frighten off boats “ .
Kinda head in the sand attitude .The €130 M is a huge amount to grind out of the berth holders .
Well chickens coming home ,springs to mind .
Theres no way around deflecting who’s gonna pay the €130 M and it’s effect on the berth lease prices .The locals via the equivalent of “ rates “ via the mayor sure as hell will not .

Thats it really .
The Cap ex figure are as I say prescribed and signed off by Paris based on the wishes of this middle committee.
Mayor , marine business, + a whole host of other stake holders .
So if for example they want a hotel or shops and over the past 40/50 years the incumbent marina operators has resisted or been unhelpful, it’s when the that concession ends and the new one starts there’s an opportunity for Paris , lobbied by this middle organisation to insert the cap ex bit for the new development(s) .

@ Marc yours is ok I recall as its already nicely developed ( has hotel + shops + petite casino + restaurants) .Also they have recently re done the little marina in town down the road as the focal point .So you cap ex I do not think is anything to worry about .

La Naps position is ok too .We activity worked with the Mayor ( the middle committee guys ) on two occasions.
First to redevelopment of the esplanade for markets and events adding trees , lighting , power + disabled access - parking for none marina cars ie locals / tourists .It cost £2M which basically added another €800 to my service charge ( remember the berth holders always pays ) ......but we gained another 5 y extension to the concession taking it to 2024 .

Then the middle committee.....pipe up and complain there’s insufficient catamaran berths / facilities on the CdA , you know the growing power cat rental market .Remember there will be a power cat dealer in there somewhere .
Seeing the opportunity we put fwd another proposition for redeveloped .To extend one of our quays to make a dedicated cat berth + improve the beach near by next to chateau........you guessed it we negotiated another 5 year extension taking it to now the longest on the CdA = 2029 .
For that I think i pay pro rata another extra €800 pa on top the maintenance.
Can not remember how much circa €5M but it’s amortisation period is longer now it’s growing because we keep pushing the end dates further out by continuing to re invest in the infrastructure listening out what the town and region ( the middle committee) want .

PV has done diddly squat .

 

[Bouba]

I have touched on this before esp PV .
Its a kinda retribution @ PV for the previous incumbents lack of investment since they got the initial concession , in the 70 s or when ever ?
If I recall in typical Fr fashion “ Paris “is at the top they issue the concessions via a intermediary level of committee consisting of local stakeholders.
PV failed to keep up investment in the infrastructure so Paris has added a catch up sum .To be added on , the prescription done by the middle level .I recall a new hotel , sailing academy, swimming pool + much more inc a food village .
Its suppose to draw more folks into the town and add to the Antibes experiences wider development plan .Sort of catch up .
I saw the figures a few years ago as had a minor role in looking at a tender to take it over .Our Marina management team were invited to tender .We looked and once we saw the €130 M cap ex .....ran !

Can not remember the exact date circa as far back as 2016 17 ? When the Mayors office where installed to run in the final few years .The old management team were ousted .
The same retribution, or cap ex number s were prescribed by “Paris “ to them all , all the concessions coming up .
So the numbers are PV €130 M of cap ex .Or were when we looked .I have the prospectus still somewhere?

Just to give some perspective the others were teens like €13M or single digit .One the next nearest to PV iirc was only €29 M .

So that €130 M or so has to be passed on to the berthholders .
Every time I have raised this on here I have been knocked back with the standard “ boats move “ or “ PV is such a great place they dare not frighten off boats “ .
Kinda head in the sand attitude .The €130 M is a huge amount to grind out of the berth holders .
Well chickens coming home ,springs to mind .
Theres no way around deflecting who’s gonna pay the €130 M and it’s effect on the berth lease prices .The locals via the equivalent of “ rates “ via the mayor sure as hell will not .

Thats it really .
The Cap ex figure are as I say prescribed and signed off by Paris based on the wishes of this middle committee.
Mayor , marine business, + a whole host of other stake holders .
So if for example they want a hotel or shops and over the past 40/50 years the incumbent marina operators has resisted or been unhelpful, it’s when the that concession ends and the new one starts there’s an opportunity for Paris , lobbied by this middle organisation to insert the cap ex bit for the new development(s) .

@ Marc yours is ok I recall as its already nicely developed ( has hotel + shops + petite casino + restaurants) .Also they have recently re done the little marina in town down the road as the focal point .So you cap ex I do not think is anything to worry about .

La Naps position is ok too .We activity worked with the Mayor ( the middle committee guys ) on two occasions.
First to redevelopment of the esplanade for markets and events adding trees , lighting , power + disabled access - parking for none marina cars ie locals / tourists .It cost £2M which basically added another €800 to my service charge ( remember the berth holders always pays ) ......but we gained another 5 y extension to the concession taking it to 2024 .

Then the middle committee.....pipe up and complain there’s insufficient catamaran berths / facilities on the CdA , you know the growing power cat rental market .Remember there will be a power cat dealer in there somewhere .
Seeing the opportunity we put fwd another proposition for redeveloped .To extend one of our quays to make a dedicated cat berth + improve the beach near by next to chateau........you guessed it we negotiated another 5 year extension taking it to now the longest on the CdA = 2029 .
For that I think i pay pro rata another extra €800 pa on top the maintenance.
Can not remember how much circa €5M but it’s amortisation period is longer now it’s growing because we keep pushing the end dates further out by continuing to re invest in the infrastructure listening out what the town and region ( the middle committee) want .

PV has done diddly squat .

Surely you can get €130m from just a few superyacht or one mega yacht berth?

 

[Portofino]

Surely you can get €130m from just a few superyacht or one mega yacht berth?

This things been known about , like Brexit for over 4 years .
They can not agree terms .Is that particularly surprising ? Plenty of places for an evening meal in Antibes

 

[Portofino]

As a example of “ the easiest marina deal in history “ NOT !
A couple of our 45 M guys wanted to up size to 80 M and stay in La Nap as we have a rather nice private airport next door making it very convenient.They were on the max size berths .
They proposed at there expense to extend the our sea wall out to make way for 3 may be 4 x 80 M berths occupy there two on pro rata terms and give the other two , plus the vacated 45 s back to the marina to let out .Not re lease , let so boosting our income .
Great idea we all thought .Eyes turning to cash registers reducing the maintenance charge etc .

Except we could not get it through planning ( well they expensed it ) .
Not the mayor , not a the French .Nope a retired Eng colonial who went all the way to Paris to object .He won on some old French law of blocking his view .With the extension he successfully argued something to do with the view of the Lerins from the public beach by the chateau would be obscured by the big boats and there was some ancient covenant or something that could not be broken .
One did not up size kept his 47 M the other moved , not sure where .Hope it was not PV

 

[mcanderson]

Mike, a 20-22m x 6.5m berth at BSM is €35000. Everything is going annual next year so you can’t buy a lease, but it might be of interest.

Wrong side of Nice for Biot, I know, but give me a call if you want an introduction.

 

[jointventureII]

Bloody hell that's expensive, I would imagine that is the mainland Med's most expensive on an annual basis.

I hate PV and Antibes in general but it's seen as Mecca by yacht crew. The times I've been into the office is akin to going into some sort of war. All the surrounding ports are the opposite - welcoming and friendly.

I agree with Portofino - PV has done nothing and relied on its position

 

[jrudge]

Mike, a 20-22m x 6.5m berth at BSM is €35000. Everything is going annual next year so you can’t buy a lease, but it might be of interest.

Wrong side of Nice for Biot, I know, but give me a call if you want an introduction.

interesting. We have been looking at moving from Mallorca for a while but keep being drawn back to the place !

the main sof issue is finding a rental berth as I don’t really want to buy

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, a 20-22m x 6.5m berth at BSM is €35000. Everything is going annual next year so you can’t buy a lease, but it might be of interest.

Wrong side of Nice for Biot, I know, but give me a call if you want an introduction.

Thanks S. The location is absolutely fine but to be honest I havent given any thought to where we might go next as we've still got another year at PV. A big thing for me is guardiennage. I need to find somebody I can trust to look after the boat in my absence and arrange for any maintenance jobs to be done. Is there anyone at Beaulieu that could do that and also speaks reasonable English?

 

[mcanderson]

Yep, I can give you a number of names. The rate it is taking us to find somewhere to live back in the UK it might be me as I will be working from home in the SofF! Confirmed start date with the new company is 1 Feb.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yep, I can give you a number of names. The rate it is taking us to find somewhere to live back in the UK it might be me as I will be working from home in the SofF! Confirmed start date with the new company is 1 Feb.

The property market is particularly hot here at present especially for property outside the cities but everybody is saying that the market will decline next year so you might get more choice next year

 

[mcanderson]

Yes and we are looking in the very undesirable areas of Marlow, Henley, Pangbourne and Goring in no particular order. At this rate I will have to cruise at displacement speeds as I won't be able to afford fuel!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes and we are looking in the very undesirable areas of Marlow, Henley, Pangbourne and Goring in no particular order. At this rate I will have to cruise at displacement speeds as I won't be able to afford fuel!

And as I've found out myself buying the house is just the start of the spending. She'll want a new kitchen, extra bedroom, new bathrooms and maybe even a pool and total redecoration of course. If you had any thoughts of a new boat, you wont have soon

 

[danvan]

I have touched on this before esp PV .
Its a kinda retribution @ PV for the previous incumbents lack of investment since they got the initial concession , in the 70 s or when ever ?
If I recall in typical Fr fashion “ Paris “is at the top they issue the concessions via a intermediary level of committee consisting of local stakeholders.
PV failed to keep up investment in the infrastructure so Paris has added a catch up sum .To be added on , the prescription done by the middle level .I recall a new hotel , sailing academy, swimming pool + much more inc a food village .
Its suppose to draw more folks into the town and add to the Antibes experiences wider development plan .Sort of catch up .
I saw the figures a few years ago as had a minor role in looking at a tender to take it over .Our Marina management team were invited to tender .We looked and once we saw the €130 M cap ex .....ran !

Can not remember the exact date circa as far back as 2016 17 ? When the Mayors office where installed to run in the final few years .The old management team were ousted .
The same retribution, or cap ex number s were prescribed by “Paris “ to them all , all the concessions coming up .
So the numbers are PV €130 M of cap ex .Or were when we looked .I have the prospectus still somewhere?

Just to give some perspective the others were teens like €13M or single digit .One the next nearest to PV iirc was only €29 M .

So that €130 M or so has to be passed on to the berthholders .
Every time I have raised this on here I have been knocked back with the standard “ boats move “ or “ PV is such a great place they dare not frighten off boats “ .
Kinda head in the sand attitude .The €130 M is a huge amount to grind out of the berth holders .
Well chickens coming home ,springs to mind .
Theres no way around deflecting who’s gonna pay the €130 M and it’s effect on the berth lease prices .The locals via the equivalent of “ rates “ via the mayor sure as hell will not .

Thats it really .
The Cap ex figure are as I say prescribed and signed off by Paris based on the wishes of this middle committee.
Mayor , marine business, + a whole host of other stake holders .
So if for example they want a hotel or shops and over the past 40/50 years the incumbent marina operators has resisted or been unhelpful, it’s when the that concession ends and the new one starts there’s an opportunity for Paris , lobbied by this middle organisation to insert the cap ex bit for the new development(s) .

@ Marc yours is ok I recall as its already nicely developed ( has hotel + shops + petite casino + restaurants) .Also they have recently re done the little marina in town down the road as the focal point .So you cap ex I do not think is anything to worry about .

La Naps position is ok too .We activity worked with the Mayor ( the middle committee guys ) on two occasions.
First to redevelopment of the esplanade for markets and events adding trees , lighting , power + disabled access - parking for none marina cars ie locals / tourists .It cost £2M which basically added another €800 to my service charge ( remember the berth holders always pays ) ......but we gained another 5 y extension to the concession taking it to 2024 .

Then the middle committee.....pipe up and complain there’s insufficient catamaran berths / facilities on the CdA , you know the growing power cat rental market .Remember there will be a power cat dealer in there somewhere .
Seeing the opportunity we put fwd another proposition for redeveloped .To extend one of our quays to make a dedicated cat berth + improve the beach near by next to chateau........you guessed it we negotiated another 5 year extension taking it to now the longest on the CdA = 2029 .
For that I think i pay pro rata another extra €800 pa on top the maintenance.
Can not remember how much circa €5M but it’s amortisation period is longer now it’s growing because we keep pushing the end dates further out by continuing to re invest in the infrastructure listening out what the town and region ( the middle committee) want .

PV has done diddly squat .

So I guess we'll be moving on from PV from next Christmas so the question is where. I'm thinking that we might go and take a berth for a year in Corsica somewhere (maybe Propriano or St Florent) if they have the space - appreciate it's dead out of season there, but I think it would still be fun for a year. If we stay in Cote d'Azur region I'm thinking either Camille Rayon or La Naps - out of interest @Portofino do you know what availability is like for 22m boats there, and is there someone in particular I should try to speak to? Thanks very much.

 

[Portofino]

So I guess we'll be moving on from PV from next Christmas so the question is where. I'm thinking that we might go and take a berth for a year in Corsica somewhere (maybe Propriano or St Florent) if they have the space - appreciate it's dead out of season there, but I think it would still be fun for a year. If we stay in Cote d'Azur region I'm thinking either Camille Rayon or La Naps - out of interest @Portofino do you know what availability is like for 22m boats there, and is there someone in particular I should try to speak to? Thanks very much.

Bart at homeport .
He is a director of the management Co, and has ears everywhere.
Your Berth if you buy entitles you to shares of the company .With those theres an entitlement to a specific berth .
We do rentals ,
Iam renting mine out right now for circa €17000 - 14x 4.83 and taking a sabbatical in Italy for about €8000 pa .

He knows me ...the guy on quay E with the Itama , as he is my tenant for another business his Fairline dealership
The prices for rent are fixed by the marina management ( our own co)for transparency and they skim 20 % ..
another fee earner .Point is “ we “ voted for this the berthholders as I say are in control as share owners .


Contact

 

[danvan]

Thank's for that - much appreciated.

 

[Hurricane]

So I guess we'll be moving on from PV from next Christmas so the question is where. I'm thinking that we might go and take a berth for a year in Corsica somewhere (maybe Propriano or St Florent) if they have the space - appreciate it's dead out of season there, but I think it would still be fun for a year. If we stay in Cote d'Azur region I'm thinking either Camille Rayon or La Naps - out of interest @Portofino do you know what availability is like for 22m boats there, and is there someone in particular I should try to speak to? Thanks very much.

Or Spain - Barcelona is a main airline hub.