Playing with Fire - Anchor Question

SiteSurfer

SiteSurfer

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I don't wish to be responsible for another bloodbath thread, so just want to clear up that I know what anchor I'm going to purchase - Manson Supreme (galv version).

Two things I'd like to ask:

1) A 16kg is recommended for the tonnage and size of boat - I have no reason to doubt Mason's literature - so I'm asking for personal opinions on whether it is still a thing to go for an anchor one size bigger when using NG anchors? I had a smaller version on the last boat (sized to the boat) and it was brilliant (hence buying another bigger one for the new boat) - but she was only 2.5 tonne.

2) Chain - Kong - small chain - certified shackle - anchor, or chain - Kong direct to anchor? (Kong Swivel), am I overthinking side loads?

Not going offshore, would be coastal use and perhaps Med if we ever get there.. channel crossings etc.
 
Three things come to mind:
It doesn't say much for so called "New Generation" anchors, if the perceived wisdom is to go up a size from the previous generation of anchors. :rolleyes:

Why are you considering introducing the unnecessary potential weakness of a swivel?

Is this just a troll?
 
No absolutely not. Note the title and the opening statement.

It's my second anchor (ever) and its a big hike in price from 16kg to 20kg and lots of forum searching came up with a mixed bag of answers.

I've seen plenty of threads on the use of the Kong + Chain + Shackle, but wondered if that was more inclined to heavy users - however in my mind anchoring is anchoring so was checking whether the introduction of another stressed point (ie: the little bit of chain + shackle) was worth the potential issue with side loads that I keep seeing noises about.

I had a Kong on the last boat direct to the 12kg anchor, however - i had one or two people stopped by the boat in a couple places and tutted about it, saying "side loads tsk tsk" or words to that effect.

Given that there are some time served and very experienced people on this forum I value their opinion greater than some chap randomly wandering down the woodwork in their local marina.
 
The answer depends on the chiain you propose to use, for like ships it is the chain (100m of 12mm+ minimum for serious work) is primarily responsible for both holding and damping. That said, the better holding power of NG anchors is primarily a function of their poor galavanisung (rougher - more holding). If you spec a smooth one then definitely go a size heavier.

Others may disagree!
 
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SiteSurfer said:
it is still a thing to go for an anchor one size bigger when using NG anchors?
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Never really was "a thing" .. Lots of long term cruisers like to go up a size as there's no real downside and prefer the extra holding power should they get caught in a real bad blow with no where to run to or get hammered by a thunderstorm in less than wonderful holding . Not common but does happen. And nothing to do with new gen anchors, lots of cruisers have preferred big hooks for a very long time, if anything maybe a little less so now when we have much better designed hooks.
For the vast majority of boats on here no point upsizing, if a few kilos up front isn't an issue and thinking of living on the hook then maybe worth considering, though thinking through the whole system/snubber etc is possibly higher up the list.
 
Ok thanks, I know its only 100 quid but I could spend that on something else, the chain is 8mm.

From inspection in Force 4 (and like my old Manson) the galvanising is quite rough - not terrible but feels like its been well done - my old one (as I said) was wonderful and I have no doubt about the actual bit of kit, just that I am almost trebling the weight on the chain but only increasing the weight of the anchor by 4kg.

I'm getting the impression that I am overthinking the whole thing for the usage that we intend.
 
NormanS said:
Three things come to mind:
It doesn't say much for so called "New Generation" anchors, if the perceived wisdom is to go up a size from the previous generation of anchors. :rolleyes:

Why are you considering introducing the unnecessary potential weakness of a swivel?

Is this just a troll?
Click to expand...

+1

I fail to understand why people post about anchors and apologise.

If you are sailing offshore you might find it difficult to anchor :) - though I understand what you meant. sadly sailing local water doe not mean you might not be subject to a severe thunderstorm, or even an optimistic forecast - assume the worst.

If you are analysing your ground tackle - why not query the chain quality. Or are you going to buy an un-marked product of no known manufacturer - unlikely given the introductory post, though use of a swivel does raise questions - why, what is the thought process? You say 'small' chain - what do you mean by small?

Fill in more detail and we can give more focused comment.

Jonathan

crossed with GHA :)
 
SiteSurfer said:
Not going offshore, would be coastal use and perhaps Med if we ever get there.. channel crossings etc.
Click to expand...
Two things

What sort of weather/wind do you usually stay on the hook?

I find offshore anchoring pretty rubbish as carrying 600 meters of chain leads to sitting way too low in the water.
 
The chain is on the boat and is 8mm.
The anchor would be a Manson Supreme 16kg Galvanised - the boat is a Bavaria 36.
The swivel would be a Kong
The shackle would be a Titan from Force 4
The middle bit of chain (as I understand it) would be 3 or 4 links.

I literally wish I could change the title as it was tongue in cheek and folks are getting miffed about it.
 
How you attach the chain to the anchor, depends to a large extent on the width between the jaws of your bow roller(s). The simplest is a bow shackle of suitable strength and size, but often bow roller assemblies are made far too small - hence the introduction of Kong etc. Side loading exposes the weakness of such links.

Modern tendency is towards using lighter stronger chain than the previous norm. This means that you lose out on the benefit of catenary. Swings and roundabouts. There are endless postings about catenary versus a cat's cradle of stretchy lines rigged as "snubbers". Lighter boats tend to go for the lighter stronger (higher grade steel) chain. With heavier boats, the extra weight of more substantial chain, is no great handicap.

What would you hope to gain by introducing a swivel?
 
Sandy said:
Two things

What sort of weather/wind do you usually stay on the hook?

I find offshore anchoring pretty rubbish as carrying 600 meters of chain leads to sitting way too low in the water.
Click to expand...

We (family) would normally anchor in 5m of water around the Solent in less then F6 conditions.
Its because we are thinking about venturing a bit further that I am checking in advance whilst i am in the process of buying it all.
 
You don’t need to go up a size. The so called NGA work well as many articles demonstrate. These articles also demonstrate why old generation anchors were less effective.

I have never used a swivel and never seen the need for one. The anchor always has sorted itself out when straight up and down.

Spend the money saved on something else and enjoy the greater efficiency of your NGA.
 
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SiteSurfer said:
We (family) would normally anchor in 5m of water around the Solent in less then F6 conditions.
Its because we are thinking about venturing a bit further that I am checking in advance whilst i am in the process of buying it all.
Click to expand...

On a serious note - ignore my previous response - a Bav 36 won’t do well with too much weight in the bow.

From experience I would be almost certain that a 16kg NG anchor would be fine. The whole sizing up debate is IMHO just mystical folklore. Look at the max holding of the 16kg and decide if your expected max loads will exceed them. If so, take a good look at your bow tackle, for example I saw a lovely new HR last w.e with its bow roller twisted in a F8. And don’t forget that some of these NG anchors are ‘diggers’; some tests suggest (and i’m being serious here) that a well-dug smaller anchor can be better than a lightly set heavy one. Also re ‘diggers’, they can be right royal PITAs to release after a blow, esp from gloopy sand.

8mm G40 chain is more than ample. You could go to 6mm in higher grades, but can be pricey as chain wheel has to be replaced as well. Once again, if going 8mm, be careful with the weight.

Finally, the Kong; I wld suggest fitting without and only adding if necessary. It mostly isn’t.

One more thing: cut out a rough cardboard model of the anchor and make sure the damn thing fits your bow setup!
 
dom said:
Finally, the Kong; I would suggest fitting without and only adding if necessary. It mostly isn’t.

One more thing: cut out a rough cardboard model of the anchor and make sure the damn thing fits your bow setup!
Click to expand...

Thank you, I was only fitting the swivel as I had fitted one on the last boat - and that was fitted due to a perception that I 'needed one' - couldn't honestly say that I have ever really noticed any difference before and after fitting, it just seemed like a good idea at the time and I have subsequently read that a certified shackle (or whatever the best way to title them is) works just as well.

I spoke to the nice chaps at Force 4 and they will allow me to carry the anchor out the back door and try it on the boat (the Chandlery is next to the boat in a spookily convenient turn of events!) :)
 
CMP who claim to make and certainly market Titan shackles make 2 qualities - which will you be buying? and what size.

The rode is a complete package - chain, anchor and all the bits in between, including or not, shackle, swivel, snubber. There is no point if they do not all match, for both strength, size and 'performance'.

We use 6mm high tensile chain, a 8kg alloy NG anchor (same size and performance as a steel NG anchor) we use long snubbers, Crosby shackles (no swivel). Our yacht is a 7t 38' cat with the same windage as a 45' Bav (I've compared engineering drawings). We carry spare anchors and are not afraid to use and a also carry a spare rode.

I query why you want to use a swivel.

I think your chain and anchor size is about right. I'd be interested in which shackle you will be using. If you do not anchor in thin mud nor a lot of weed, nor a lot of (fluke sized) stones the Supreme will be fine. An alternative would be an equivalent sized Knox (I think it is 13kg) For thin mud I'd be suggesting a Fortress (FX16) and for weed and stones Spade, S80. I'd suggest you carry a spare anchor, which can replace your primary - people do lose their anchor.

Jonathan
 
Just to clarify the offshore thing.
The Manson website asks whether you would be going 'offshore' and suggests a heavier anchor if that's the case (at least they did for my weight of boat).

I'm not certain that their definition of offshore is the same as yours, I took it to mean 'venturing away into unknown grounds in all manner of conditions' rather than 'dropping a hook in 50m of water'
 
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