Planning the great escape

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LuckyLucy

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After living in a camper for the past 'nearly' six months we've decided that we'd rather like to do the same thing on a boat. 'Dooooon't do iiiit' I hear you cry. Well, yes I know, boats are a black pit into which money disappears never to be seen again. But you know, people do live on boats, all sorts of people - and not only the super (miserable) rich.

The two most obvious doubts that I have on the subject are about gas and harbours:

The single most infuriating, mind bogglingly bad experience we've had while driving all over Europe has been the non-standard gas bottle fittings. We actually ended up at one point with five, count them 5, different types of gas bottle hidden away in various parts of the camper. It's a nightmare. Fortunately, as we came to discover, everything in the camper from the ring burners to the water heater couldn't give a monkey's uncle whether the gas is Butane or Propane. At least that has saved our bacon on a few occasions. The fridge runs off the inverter while on the road and on gas when we stop; a 9kg bottle lasts just over a month. So then, boats, cruising in the Med boats, how does it work? What happens? When you tie-up at the/a marina is there always the same type of gas available? Propane or Butane? Are they always the same type of bottles? Or are there lots and lots of different types? Or is it a similar nightmare situation to the one we've experienced in the camper?

The question about harbours is again based on zero experience. We bought a copy of the Imray Med Almanac expressly for the purpose of trying to gain a handle on marina costs. After 6 months in the camper we've managed to go everywhere we wanted and then stay over night at zero cost. That presumably is never going to happen in a marina but what about harbours? Who owns the harbours, is it the state or the town council? Is 'safe harbour in a storm' an unwritten right for all mariners? I suspect not. Is it possible to cruise the Med for a year or so without paying marina fees? If you anchor in a harbour and go in using your dinghy is that frowned upon?

I have approximately13:50 12/05/2014 432,000 other questions but these are the most important to me at the moment.

If the answers to these questions are to be gleaned by poring over the forum's messages then I apologise in advance.

Thanks in advance for any help that you give regarding these questions.
 
Answers to your two basic questions. First gas. Yes, there are just the same range of bottles in europe as you have experienced. The most commonly used is the Camping Gaz type, but it makes sense also to carry the different regulators for other types. You can get adaptors from Southern Calor in Southampton. Gas is freely available wherever you go, either in marinas or fuel stations as it is almost the universal cooking fuel for boats.

It is difficult to avoid using marinas at some point in the year as in some parts of the Med, particularly to the west there is a shortage of safe free anchorages. It is better in the east. There is no general rule about who owns harbours and quaysides, nor whether you have to pay or not. There is invariably a shortage of space in the summer months so inevitably there are charges as a way to regulate demand! In Greece most quays are publicly owned and there is a small charge, but it is not always levied. There are also many free anchorages so it is perhaps the lowest cost area for liveaboards. However, year round living afloat is challenging and many people spend the winter in a marina, either afloat on board or laid up ashore and go back home.

If you scroll down this forum you will find answers to most of your questions as it is a regular topic. People approach living on boats in a a range of different ways depending on their preferred lifestyle and depth of pocket. So have a look at a range of sources such as blogs, books, magazine articles etc to get a fix on what might suit you.
 
Tranona said:
In Greece most quays are publicly owned and there is a small charge, but it is not always levied.
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Thank you ever so much for taking the time to reply. Just thinking about what you said regarding the quays in Greece for example, how do you know in advance what the costs are going to be? Is it basically by looking at the Almanac? Do harbours master/marine managers all speak English? If you tie-up somewhere only to find out that the costs are astronomical is it alright to say no thanks and depart?
 
Of course you can cook on fuels other than gas. Many people swear by parrafin but it's not to everyone's taste. Diesel fired stoves are also available but they are pricey and are more akin to an Aga, i.e. left on all the time. Probably not great in the Med!

As for where to stop overnight, anchoring (e.g. in a bay etc) will be free, alongside a wall/quay will be moderately expensive, and a pontoon berth in a marina will be quite expensive. Most people mix and match. If you insist on being able to walk ashore every day without using the dinghy, then you will need deeper pockets :)
 
LuckyLucy said:
Thank you ever so much for taking the time to reply. Just thinking about what you said regarding the quays in Greece for example, how do you know in advance what the costs are going to be? Is it basically by looking at the Almanac? Do harbours master/marine managers all speak English? If you tie-up somewhere only to find out that the costs are astronomical is it alright to say no thanks and depart?
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There is a fixed scale of charges on most quays in Greece that add up to about 12 euros a day for a typical small yacht. However they are not always collected. You will find a long thread on the subject lower down this page.

Generally though you will find some marinas publish their rates on their websites, others you will have to ask when you get there, and yet others where you might not find out at all until some heavy knocks on your door asking for money! Most officials speak at least some English and at least in the bigger places printed material is in English. Thousands of English speaking people boat in the Med and mostly communication is not a problem. You should read the information on the RYA website about taking your boat abroad so that you are aware of what documentation you need and the basics of how to deal with foreign officialdom!
 
LuckyLucy said:
Thank you ever so much for taking the time to reply. Just thinking about what you said regarding the quays in Greece for example, how do you know in advance what the costs are going to be? Is it basically by looking at the Almanac? Do harbours master/marine managers all speak English? If you tie-up somewhere only to find out that the costs are astronomical is it alright to say no thanks and depart?
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The standard rate for berthing on a public quay in Greece is: €0.30 as a port entry fee (once per visit) plus €0.36 per meter LOA per 24-hour period (midnight to midnight) if you berth stern-to (which is the usual case) plus VAT (23% at the moment). Most port police do not enforce the midnight to midnight rule and they count one night as one 24-hour period. So for our 45-ft (13.7m) yacht one night in a Greek public port costs about €6.50 (€12.50 if they enforce the midnight to midnight rule).

However, this just pays for the wall you are tied to, electricity and water are almost always extra (and the cost varies from port to port). If the port provides additional facilities (lazy lines for example) that can result in an additional charge.

Most officials that you come across in Greece and Turkey, except in the very remote or rarely visited places, will speak passable English.

In the sailing tourism areas in Greece and Turkey you will find many waterside tavernas that provide a mooring pier (sometimes of dubious quality) and lazy-lines (also often of dubious quality) commonly with water and electricity. Mooring here and using water and electricity is often free provided you eat in the taverna. They are safe enough in calm weather but they are frequented by charters and flotillas so they're never quiet.

The only places where you are likely to find astronomical costs are marinas, if you find it too expensive then leaving is usually an option. When that's happened to us though we've just stayed one night and then moved on. Often you don't find out what the full cost will be until you visit the office and by then you're already properly berthed and probably plugged into electricity and water too.
 
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You do not mention if you have any boating experience. What sort of boat are you thinking of getting?
 
PlanB said:
You do not mention if you have any boating experience. What sort of boat are you thinking of getting?
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Power boat license, no sailing experience.

We would love to find a Bermudan Sloop or Yawl of around 30'.


Mavanier said:
If you insist on being able to walk ashore every day without using the dinghy, then you will need deeper pockets :)
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If and when you do go ashore using a dinghy, what is the protocol? Where is it alright to tie-up? How long is it alright to tie-up for?

A diesel fired stove, that's an interesting idea. I chucked a 240W FV panel onto the roof of the camper before we left and we've been using that with a 110Ah battery and 2kW inverter. We power everything using that set-up including computers (not much juice), toaster, hot-plate, sandwich toaster and fridge when on the road (gas overnight). On a boat I can't see there being much space for a PV panel - unless of course it's a huge boat. I need to look into wind generators though, I suspect that there are some pretty nifty designs around by now.
 
A 30' is around the minimum size for 2 to be comfortable - although there are always exceptions and a few can cope with smaller. The most common size range is probably between 33' and 40'. You will find plenty of information on power requirements. Most boats use gas for cooking because it is cheap, versatile and convenient, but often substituted by BBQs to keep heat out of the cabin. The major power consumer is a fridge if you want to keep food fresh, but equally it is possible to have a diet that does not need refrigerated food. Large battery banks and extra means of charging such as solar panels to supplement the engine are common.

Landing from a dinghy is just like most other things - it depends. In some places you can tie up at quays or land on beaches, at others the access to waterfront is controlled in some way and you could have to pay. Security is an issue in some places. however, most cruising boats use a dinghy as a vital piece of equipment.
 
Try Gaslow for gas bottle adapters.
They also sell refillable bottles and fill adapters which work all over Europe

Tony
 
I think you are going to find it very very expensive in the western Mediterranean - In the winter it can blow gales like anywhere else in the world and you need to be in a really safe anchorage or a marina/port. There are hundreds of marinas in the Western Med and very very few safe anchorages. There are a few harbours like Torreviecha where they will probably let you anchor but if you take the dinghy into the yacht club or marina they will almost certainly ask you for a parking fee.

Fishing ports and commercial ports do not really welcome pleasure yachts and even in Morocco will almost certainly ask for a parking fee.

To get an idea of marina charges in the Med have a look at http://www.gentlesailing.com/gentle_routes_to_islands.htm which lists them from Gib to the Greek Islands in both winter and summer... It is an expensive business and probably the biggest outlay on owning a boat is the mooring fee.
 
It looks as though we've found a boat to be starting with, a simple 31' sailing boat lying in the UK. So, never having done this before, I was wondering:

1) Are all such vessels registered with the SSR?
2) If so registered is a vessel linked to its owner on the register?
3) When such a vessel sells does the SSR need to be updated?
4) Wrt insurance is it possible to insure a vessel that isn't SSR registered?

I've asked the seller whether the boat has an SSR number but have not as yet heard back from them.
 
LuckyLucy said:
It looks as though we've found a boat to be starting with, a simple 31' sailing boat lying in the UK. So, never having done this before, I was wondering:

1) Are all such vessels registered with the SSR?
2) If so registered is a vessel linked to its owner on the register?
3) When such a vessel sells does the SSR need to be updated?
4) Wrt insurance is it possible to insure a vessel that isn't SSR registered?

I've asked the seller whether the boat has an SSR number but have not as yet heard back from them.
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Suggest you buy the little RYA book on buying and selling secondhand boats and also read the guidance on taking your boat abroad on the RYA website. This will give you a good guide to the process and the documentation required.

With regard to the SSR, it is not compulsory and it is not a register of title. All it does is confirm that the boat is British when you take it abroad. You can register your boat on it (if you qualify), on line for £25 - details on the MCA site. If it is already registered then the seller should notify the registry of the change in ownership and you should get the same number assigned to you.

If your plan is to cruise the Med, be aware that few boats in the UK are well equipped for long distance hot weather cruising and living aboard and you are likely to need significant expenditure to bring it up to standard. You also have to get it there, which is OK if either the canals through France or the long way round the outside is part of what you want to do. Either of these could take up a whole season - and remember sailing is generally a summer activity and few people do any significant cruising November through to April.
 
LuckyLucy said:
It looks as though we've found a boat to be starting with, a simple 31' sailing boat lying in the UK. So, never having done this before, I was wondering:

1) Are all such vessels registered with the SSR?
2) If so registered is a vessel linked to its owner on the register?
3) When such a vessel sells does the SSR need to be updated?
4) Wrt insurance is it possible to insure a vessel that isn't SSR registered?

I've asked the seller whether the boat has an SSR number but have not as yet heard back from them.
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Without being a killjoy I think you two should consider a very basic and inexpensive course to experience something of boats.

The SSB means nothing at all... The only purpose of it is to allow you to check into a foreign port because all countries require some form of boat registration. You do not need it in the UK. It does not prove you own the boat. It does not prove you do not have a mortgage on the boat. It has nothing to do with insurance. It is a small laminated bit of paper which describes the boat for marina, non UK customs, port officials.

There is a registration called Part 1 which was 'Blue Book'. It is a bigger bit of laminated paper - A4 - and it does have value. It proves who is the owner and if they have a mortgage or loan on the boat.

I suggested earlier that you consider downloading http://www.gentlesailing.com/gentle_...to_islands.htm to give you some idea of the costs of sailing in Mediterranean Sea. Email me and I will give you a free copy - Living in a 31 footer in the summer heat of the Mediterranean or the cold wet damp of winter in the Med is OK for a while but still very expensive.

If you want to sail - own a boat and travel with it (I sailed around the world in a 36ft boat) that's fine, but to treat it as a glorified houseboat drifting aimlessly is very very challenging. Try crewseekers.UK there are always people looking for crew.. get into a few boats and do a little sailing - then buy.
fair winds

Michael
 
Paw Paw said:
If you want to sail - own a boat and travel with it (I sailed around the world in a 36ft boat) that's fine, but to treat it as a glorified houseboat drifting aimlessly is very very challenging.
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To be fair Micheal I did say that we have now found a small boat to learn with; we are certainly not considering spending the rest of our lives in such a small space. After much consideration we are intending to buy the 31'er, spend a couple of months in the Uk involved in concentrated sailing (taking lessons and gaining experience). We then are looking into taking her to the Med by means of the French canals so as to avoid the BoB which by all accounts would be foolhardy to try to cross without a good deal of experience under one's belt (or boom).

Three facts:
1) boats are much less costly in the Uk than in Italy
2) we live in Italy and so will have to return there as some point
3) although I hold a 'Patente Nautica' (a motore entro 12 miglia) which I studied for in Italian (I earn my living by means of the Italian language) I would prefer to be taught how to sail in my mother tongue

Anyway, thanks for the offer of the book, the link doesn't work btw. I shall indeed endeavour to contact you via e-mail.

Now on a different point, I'm confused.... Time for a stupid question. Most of my power boat course was centred around navigation and reading charts. The point of the rose is to allow you to compensate for the fact that the earth's magnetic field doesn't stay put. Fine, we're all fine with that, the rose tells you what the magnetic field was up to when the chart was drawn. And from there you can do two calculations in order to arrive at a compass bearing. Now then, here's the stupid question part, I was interested to look at modern ways of navigating using an Android tablet for example. I downloaded Marine Navigator and bought .kap file chart of the Gulf of Naples. The graphical quality of the chart is simply wonderful but there's no bloooomin' rose. How the **** am I supposed to plot a course when I don't know where the chart thinks magnetic north is? Now then, at this point I must make an admission. The tablet I'm using doesn't happen to have GPS. This means that the compass in the app doesn't turn itself on. I'm just wondering therefore whether perhaps there is data embedded in the .kap file which with an enables compass automatically causes it to adjust the chart. Or is that idea complete and utter cobblers? Feel free to laugh at the idiot, I have broad shoulders and I can take it. :cool:
 
Sounds like you really need to do the RYA Day Skipper course. That will also entitle you to have an International Certificate of Competence, which although not strictly compulsory for sailing on the sea, is part of the CEVNI ticket that you need for the canals.

As to plotting a course to steer, the basic RYA course covers traditional navigation using paper charts as well as electronic based navigation. Personally I would not attempt the use of electronic charts without first understanding the principles of traditional paper based navigation. Once you understand the principles you are then in a position to understand how electronics can be an aid to navigation by allowing you to decide on more efficient ways of handling the data.

You will also be in a better position to make a decision about what charting system will suit you best, as not only are there several different approaches, but technology and availability of data is changing all the time so you need to assess what is best for you. Currently Android tablets have significant limitations compared with other systems, but they do have their uses as ancillaries to other more capable systems.
 
Good luck to you. This forum will always give you free advice and suggestions as to the way forward.
My only comment on your current plan is that if you plan to buy your 31' yacht and then sell it after a few months then you could waste a lot of cash. Buying a boat and then getting it up to scratch is generally quite expensive and you need to try sailing a variety of boats to learn what suits you best. As you've already alluded to a RYA Day Skipper course would be a wise investment.
All these things are your decisions but their is huge experience on the forum.

Your plan sounds fun though. My wife and I moved aboard six weeks ago and are heading North from Yorkshire towards Scotland and are having a great time. Anyone can do it they just need the will and a sensible degree of prudence.

Good luck
 
I really do think you would benefit from a charter holiday in the Eastern Med, if only for a week, on a similar size yacht that you are thinking of living on. A sailing yacht will tax your abilities far more than a mobo, so some instruction would be an advantage, Tranona's advice should be noted.
I would not venture into French waters without all paperwork and certificates in place, the Gendarmerie, once they get their teeth into you can be costly. A CEVNI ticket is needed for the canals, a Certificate of Compitance from the RYA is useful and may be asked for anywhere.
You have now had lots of advice from the above posts, most of them advising some sort of training and experience, get out on the water now, the weather is fine but it's not all plain sailing, wherever you are in the world there will be gales and storms. don't be put off it's a great life if fully prepared.
On the point of electrics, wind generation is not the most cost effective, solar is better in my experience, a decent bank of batteries are a must.
 
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