Pirate Threat !!!!

Re: Guns or Passports

Well then I stand corrected. Why bother doing anything that is the teensiest bit dodgy then - might as well get a second passport the legit way. Seems a minor cost to: a) have a back-up if you actually lose one, b) add authenticity to your bogus wallet, and c) in case you have to send one for a visa.
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Well done for the gracious defeat. I could never understand why you were arguing the point, as I had 2 passports for years, as I did business in both Israel and Middle East
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Defeat? Call it what you want, but I don't think it's a defeat if I learned something new.
At the risk of starting another petty argument, I wasn't arguing the point about two passports - I quote myself: "I'm not going to dispute the fact there may be people with more than one passport that have been issued with the blessing of the passport authority, but I would caution anyone contemplating this method to check with the authorities at home and at their destination."
See I learned that the UKPA will issue two passports to people who need them. Perhaps you are able to learn that not all countries share that opinion on pluralized passports. From the Canadian passport office: " An individual must never be in possession of two valid passports or travel documents . "
http://www.pptc.gc.ca/travel_tips/lost_stolen_e.asp

Do you not agree that it's good advice to check with the country you're travelling to on passport/visa requirements and/or restrictions? Don't want to end up like that Piper fellow in Abu Dhabi, do you?
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Are you trying to wind me up, or do you honestly believe you're being gracious in gloating and trying to rub my face in it?
I conceded the point that some people have more than one valid passport back on the third page of this thread, yet I find myself repeatedly addressing this same point. I just think if you have two passports you should check with the country you are visiting to ensure that you won't have any problems with that before you go - how can you argue with that? Surely you would not take your Israel-stamped passport to an Arab country, would you? That would defeat the whole purpose of you having separate passports now, wouldn't it?
If you can legally get a second passport, then by all means do so, but I submit most respectfully that you shouldn't claim to have lost a passport just to get a second one. I've already shown what the UK and Canadian passport offices say on the subject, so I'll add what the Aussies say about it:
"You must promptly report the loss or theft of your passport. It is an offence to fail to report the loss or theft of your Australian passport as soon as you learn of the loss. By reporting the loss, your passport can be immediately and permanently cancelled, and cannot be used to enter or leave any country, thereby significantly reducing the chances of its misuse by terrorists or other criminals. Border control authorities in Australia and abroad will confiscate any cancelled passport that comes to their notice. It is an offence under the Australian Passports Act 2005 to use a cancelled Australian passport with a penalty of up to 10 years’ imprisonment or a fine of $110,000, or both."
http://www.passports.gov.au/Web/renewal/lost_stolen.aspx
10 years and/or $110,000 doesn't seem like a slap on the wrist does it? And before someone goes and says something like "well I wouldn't actually use it..." let me tell you that if you're in a foreign country and the passport is in your possession then you are using it, aren't you? If you bothered to look at any of the links I posted, you would notice that I am clearly not alone in my thinking that criminals and/or terrorists would use bogus passports.
Never mind. Forget it. You're right; I'm wrong; how dare I presume to think that I, a mere acolyte could provide anything of value to this forum. That's what you wanted to hear, right? Grovel, grovel... (now prostrating myself and backing out the door...)
 
Re: Guns or Passports

I think your missing the point. Maybe it's not in UK passport agency publications, but you can tell them you need two, and why, and get the second. Or at least that was how it was some years ago when I needed them.

I've never claimed you need to 'lose' one. and no, I didn't carry both, except once, when I needed to visit several countries that were antagonistic in same trip

Why are you getting so het up, several people here have told you why they have multiple passports, and that it's not an issue.
 
Re: Guns or Passports

"Maybe it's not in UK passport agency publications, but you can tell them you need two, and why, and get the second. Or at least that was how it was some years ago when I needed them...several people here have told you why they have multiple passports, and that it's not an issue."

I agree with this. I agreed with this 6 pages back! If you are not leaving the UK you don't need a passport, so we are obviously concerned about the rules in other countries. I agree that there are places that don't care if you have two passports; there are probably places that don't care if you have a suitcase full of passports - that may not be the case in every country. I can't speak for the 170 odd countries on this planet; can you? It only makes sense that you confirm that it's OK to travel with multiple passports before you visit a new country; you check with them anyway for visa requirements, so I don't see what the big deal is.

"I've never claimed you need to 'lose' one."

I never attributed this to you. There are other forumites who are not from the UK - they may not be able to get a second passport legally, and as this was suggested earlier in the thread (not by you, but by someone else) I am cautioning against it - reasons are previously stated; see links if necessary.

"Why are you getting so het up,"

I've answered this already. It's unfortunate that tone does not translate well to the written medium of a forum, but I'm not het up. I'm am perplexed that what I'm writing seems to be so completely misinterpreted. My grammar and spelling for the most part have been correct. Do I need to use smaller words? Would it help if I type s-l-o-w-e-r? You still use English in England, don't you?
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Look. Uk gives you as many passports as you want. Errm. Within reason. Part of reason is one, going round for visa whilst your away. The other reason is, hush, hush. You might get stuck in a silly country and need to get out. So Two passports, but hush, you arnt suposed to tell em. Other countries may have different ways, or none. So when go into other countries with two passports, you dont blubt out. I got two. Mmmeeerrrbb. You sort of say nothing and carry on. You only use option two, when first optionhas failled and cannot be resolved. So then you go to opption two. It aint rocket science.... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Guns or Passports

OK - answer to my last question is "no".
Your way works. If they don't search your boat and/or have a problem with your extra passport, Bob's your uncle. And if they do search and have a problem, then you get free room and board in a secure location with the toilet conveniently located beside your cot - it's all good.
Where's the sport in asking beforehand? Hide some guns on board too! And don't forget to tell off the local magistrate.
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Perhaps you could give us a list of the countries that prohibit entry to or regard entry by a non citizen with two or more valid passports (whether they all be issued by the same nation or by different nations) to be a crime?

I don't know of any, but perhaps there are some and I am happy to learn from your knowledge of them.

As far as I am aware it is of no other nation's business what the passport rules are of the country you are a citizen of as long as you have complied with them ie that the passport(s) you carry are valid. At worst, they only require you to enter and depart using the same passport - don't know of any exceptions myself.

John
 
Re: Guns or Passports

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you could give us a list of the countries that prohibit entry to or regard entry by a non citizen with two or more valid passports (whether they all be issued by the same nation or by different nations) to be a crime?

I don't know of any, but perhaps there are some and I am happy to learn from your knowledge of them.

As far as I am aware it is of no other nation's business what the passport rules are of the country you are a citizen of as long as you have complied with them ie that the passport(s) you carry are valid. At worst, they only require you to enter and depart using the same passport - don't know of any exceptions myself.


[/ QUOTE ]

John – I trust that this question is not as snide or sarcastic as it sounds and that you are truly
looking for edification, rather than trying to embarrass me. I hoped that you would have inferred from what I’ve written, that I’ve never carried two passports, so I have no experience in dealing with customs in any country I’ve visited, having two passports. I did say that I cannot speak for all the countries on the planet, which I will correct as being over 180 in number; can you speak for the passport and visa requirements of them all? Thought not.
I know in Canada I would be required to surrender my standard passport before being issued a special or diplomatic passport. I don’t know if they’ll issue another passport so that I can travel and apply for visas simultaneously, but I’ll be renewing my passport this year, and I’ll be sure to ask. I can only assume that even if they do issue more, they wouldn’t want me to travel with both based on this statement on the customs website:

“An individual must never be in possession of two valid passports or travel documents.”

I noticed that everyone that has stated having had two passports, spoke in the past tense. Are there any forumites who currently hold two British passports? Or two passports issued by another country?(same country for both) For all I care, every Briton could have 2 passports, 6 driver’s licences and 24 birth certificates. If you look at any passport, customs or travel tips website, they talk about passports in a singular sense: “Keep your passport on your person or secure in a hotel safe and carry a photocopy of your passport with you.” Most people travel with one passport – this is the convention. Go ahead and check the pages for your passport service or your Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

http://www.fco.gov.uk

http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/general_travel_essential.asp

Notice that they also recommend checking with the country you will be visiting regarding passport rules and visa requirements. Mostly they talk about requirements to have sufficient time before your passport expires or enough blank pages in your book; they don’t talk about multiple travel documents – which I reiterate is unconventional. What does it hurt to ask the question? You don’t have to follow my advice. You don’t have to follow your government’s advice. It’s your life. For the sake of discussion, the world has changed since Sept 2001. You know what I’m talking about? Led to the invasion of Iraq; may have been in the papers? Please go to this site:
http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_m.pl?/icao/en/search_icao.html

Note para. 2.2 that says “the use of multiple travel documents was a major concern to the safety of international travel”

The following site contains this information:

quote
The Immigration Intelligence network is an important element in CBSA's strategy for dealing with irregular migration to Canada. This strategy relies on "intelligence-based" decision making to identify high-risk travellers while facilitating the movement of legitimate visitors, refugees, and immigrants.
· Migration Integrity Officers. The Immigration Intelligence network has 45 Migration Integrity Officer (MIO) positions located in key locations overseas to work with other government departments, international partners, local immigration and law enforcement agencies and airlines to combat irregular migration, including people smuggling and trafficking. The work of these officers has resulted in an interdiction rate of 72% in 2003. This means that of all those attempting to travel to Canada by air, using improperly issued documents, 72% (more than 6,400 individuals) were stopped before they got to Canada. In addition these officers have maintained a steady flow of key intelligence information which allows us to continually enhance the integrity of Canada's immigration program.
unquote
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/newsroom/factsheets/2004/0128migration-e.html

And look at this:

quote
The ICPO-Interpol General Assembly, meeting in Yaoundé from 21-24 October 2002 at its 71st session:
HAVING TAKEN NOTE of the adoption, after discussion, of four Recommendations by the Fifth International Conference on Fraudulent Travel Documents, at which experts from 83 member countries were present (submitted, respectively, as Recommendations One, Three, Four, and Seven, in Report AG-2002-RAP-10 ),
HAVING EXAMINED Report AG-2002-RAP-10 submitted by the General Secretariat,
BEARING IN MIND that a great number or variety of different travel documents, or versions thereof, issued by a given country and in circulation at the same time, is likely to create confusion and uncertainty among officials of other countries examining such documents,
FURTHER BEARING IN MIND THAT the detection and interception of counterfeit, altered or stolen travel documents depends to a great extent on accurate and timely information being received from a given country's issuing authorities,
RECOMMENDS:
1. that all member countries reduce to the minimum practicable the period during which two versions of a given travel document remain valid;
2. that the withdrawal or expiration of validity of a particular type or version of a travel document be promptly reported by the issuing country;
3. that each different version of a travel document be assigned by the issuing authority a unique three-digit designator, preceded by the ISO three-letter code, reflecting any difference in security features, design, and/or text from the previous version, and that this designator, as well as the document's print batch number, be printed somewhere on or in the document;
4. that a travel document once reported as stolen blank should never, thereafter, be issued, even if recovered in blank condition.
http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/GeneralAssembly/Agn71/Resolutions/AGN71RES5.asp

unquote

Note the first recommendation?

Believe it or not, you are subject to the laws of the country you are visiting. The fellow who was arrested in Abu Dhabi had a perfectly valid British passport, but he made a seemingly innocuous mistake with his visa and ended up in jail. Even after he got out of jail, he wasn’t able to leave the country for some time while the matter was sorted out. If you want to risk that, then go ahead and do as you please.

Now anyone who has taken the effort to visit the attached websites, or has done their own research will likely realize that numerous international organizations, such as Interpol, ICAO, UN are taking steps to crack down on passport fraud and its part in criminal and terrorist activities. What you have been able to do in the past, or are able to do today, may not be doable in the future.

I’ve only made recommendations – I can’t make you do anything; the onus is on you. I’ve only provided my opinion – you can make up your own mind. If you don’t agree with me, fine!

If someone wants to say something new I’ll be glad to reply, but I’m not going to answer repeats of the same old questions after this point. The horse is dead.
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Long post, short answer

I noticed that my first UK passport was numbered 00354.... and the second one 50017 so two different series.

I could renew my 2nd tomorrow but don't need to and not about to just to prove a point

You are labouring this aren't you? Is it so difficult to come clean and just say 'sorry, I was wrong'?
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Believe it or not, you are subject to the laws of the country you are visiting. The fellow who was arrested in Abu Dhabi had a perfectly valid British passport, but he made a seemingly innocuous mistake with his visa and ended up in jail.

But a visa is not a passport and is issued by the country to be travelled to, not by the passport holder's country of citizenship. Obviously if the visa is misused then the country travelled to will take exception to that (even ending up in jail).

John
 
Re: Guns or Passports

Tome,

I respect your opinion - you've made a lot of valid points on other threads. However you seem to be the one belabouring the point. Neither one of us can provide the definitive answer. I have an opinion; you don't share it. I'm OK with that. Why can't you let it go?
 
Re: Guns or Passports

John - you are correct, but the visa is attached to the passport. This is just an example of just how serious some agents/countries view travel documents. If it was just the visa they were concerned about, then why wasn't he allowed to leave the country after being let out of jail? I would think deportation is the obvious result if a visa is suspended.
 
Re: Guns or Passports

I would think deportation is the obvious result if a visa is suspended.

I assume you are talking about your -

There was a very recent incident where a fellow working in the UAE renewed his expired Brit passport and just moved the work visa from the old passport to the new one. Then some sharp-eyed customs fellow noted the discrepency in the passport numbers on the visa, and he landed in jail.

Visa fraud is likely to end you up in jail in many countries. I personally don't find that surprising. You seem to be justifying your case on the basis that the actions of criminals should go unheeded /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

I would think deportation is the obvious result if a visa is suspended.

You seem to be under a misapprehension regarding visas. A visa only gives you the right to travel to a country, it gives you no rights whatsoever to enter it. You present the visa at the primary line at the border and usually you get a permit stamped in your passport that entitles you to be in the country for the time and purpose of the permit.

So you will see that a visa can only be suspended before you enter the country unless it is a multiple entry one in which case, as long as one has a permit as one should, the only effect is that you cannot use the visa again to travel to that country. I have had a multiple entry visa cancelled but that was because of a legislation change in the issuing country so, of course, I was not thrown in jail.

If you try to get a permit with a forged visa upon entering the country (as the criminal guy you mentioned seems to have) then if you are very lucky you will be put on the next plane out but otherwise put in jail. Likely you will be put into jail in many places until they at least establish whether there are associated connotations which caused one to forge the visa (terrorist, money laundering, drug trafficking, etc, etc).

Again, it is illegal to be in any country I know of with only a visa in your passport. If you have only a visa in your passport then you will be under immediate suspicion of entering the country withoput going through immigration formalities.

If a permit is cancelled then one will be deported but as that is usually done only for criminal acts or immigation abuse then one can be expected to be detained at the country's leisure first - I personally don't see much wrong with that myself.

Does not seem very sensible to me you using the case of a visa fraudster to further you case.

John
 
Re: Guns or Passports

John,

Were you able to open the link to the article? The fellow wasn't entering the country - he was working there. When his passport was about to expire, he renewed it and on the advice of his employer moved the visa from his old passport to the new one. When he was at the airport clearing out of the country, the customs guy spotted that the serial number on the passport didn't match what was listed on the visa. Maybe my point is that he should have sought advice from Abu Dhabi's customs and immigration authority, rather than from a lay person.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

T
Notices to Mariners - Week 47
Replies
11
Views
684
Snowgoose-1
S

Share this page

Top