G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
penetrate 34mm steel at 500 yards
[/ QUOTE ]Oops, sorry typo, should read 3.45mm steel
penetrate 34mm steel at 500 yards
[/ QUOTE ]Oops, sorry typo, should read 3.45mm steel
Pirate Threat !!!!
- Thread starter zeb
- Start date
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Re: everyone with false passport
TCM - So you're saying I'm a "not so clever, unoriginal naysayer" because I don't agree with you? Gee, I thought the idea of a 'forum' is that divergent views can be discussed in an open manner. If everyone is just going to agree to the first thing that's said, then its only purpose is self-aggrandizement; is your ego so fragile that it needs to be continuously stroked?
Now your original suggestion, which you acknowledged as illegal, was to obtain a second passport by claiming to lose the first. While you claimed that this method would be less risky than carrying a firearm, you failed to recognize that if customs searches your boat and finds more than one valid passport for you, then you could also be in trouble with the law - this is a new idea that I provided to the forum and then was prompted to corroborate with a FAQ from the passport agency's website. I don't know where the quote "Everyone with false passport" came from as I never made that statement, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
Arguing an opposing viewpoint does not make a thread "a fight", but if you insist on insulting me you're going to have one. It is you that is "oh so very wrong." Or so it seems.
TCM - So you're saying I'm a "not so clever, unoriginal naysayer" because I don't agree with you? Gee, I thought the idea of a 'forum' is that divergent views can be discussed in an open manner. If everyone is just going to agree to the first thing that's said, then its only purpose is self-aggrandizement; is your ego so fragile that it needs to be continuously stroked?
Now your original suggestion, which you acknowledged as illegal, was to obtain a second passport by claiming to lose the first. While you claimed that this method would be less risky than carrying a firearm, you failed to recognize that if customs searches your boat and finds more than one valid passport for you, then you could also be in trouble with the law - this is a new idea that I provided to the forum and then was prompted to corroborate with a FAQ from the passport agency's website. I don't know where the quote "Everyone with false passport" came from as I never made that statement, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
Arguing an opposing viewpoint does not make a thread "a fight", but if you insist on insulting me you're going to have one. It is you that is "oh so very wrong." Or so it seems.
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Simon,
3.45mm seems a lot more believable. Like you I'm no expert on this; all I can do is make a reasoned guess. 3.45mm is still over 1/8inch thick steel - there is no way army helmets were that thick. More like 18 gauge steel - they were never designed to defeat a bullet point blank, but to protect against shrapnel. Since a 5.56mmm round is essentially the same as .223, which is a common hunting calibre, my gut feel is they don't go through stop signs of less than 1/8in steel at close range, so over 1/8in at 500m is unlikely; of course all bets are off if you're talking about armor-piercing bullets.
3.45mm seems a lot more believable. Like you I'm no expert on this; all I can do is make a reasoned guess. 3.45mm is still over 1/8inch thick steel - there is no way army helmets were that thick. More like 18 gauge steel - they were never designed to defeat a bullet point blank, but to protect against shrapnel. Since a 5.56mmm round is essentially the same as .223, which is a common hunting calibre, my gut feel is they don't go through stop signs of less than 1/8in steel at close range, so over 1/8in at 500m is unlikely; of course all bets are off if you're talking about armor-piercing bullets.
tcm
...
Is it Kevin from Essex?
No, you either misread my post or don't understand English.
What's this silly threatening of a fight about? I haven't actually insulted you. You were casual with your posts, casual with reponses, and now casual in reading of replies. Calm down a bit?
No, you either misread my post or don't understand English.
What's this silly threatening of a fight about? I haven't actually insulted you. You were casual with your posts, casual with reponses, and now casual in reading of replies. Calm down a bit?
G
Guest
Guest
Sorry if the typo confused the issue. What I was trying to say was that if the lightweight M16 round was designed at least to penetrate steel over 1/8" thick at 500 yards then it is believable that the more powerful AK47 round would go through 1/4" steel at close range.
As for the road signs, I'm not sure what thickness of steel is used but I'd have thought pretty much any military rifle round to go through them like butter. The dents you saw I suspect might have been from handguns.
By the way, the fact that some hunting rifles also use the small 5.56 calibre does not mean that they have the same penetrative power as the M16. Of more significance is the size of the cartridge, length of the barrel, profile and weight of the bullet etc. For example, the standard .22 bullet used in British gun clubs has a similar calibre to the M16, but not remotely the same penetrating power - just about enough to kill a rabbit over a couple of hundred yards.
As for the road signs, I'm not sure what thickness of steel is used but I'd have thought pretty much any military rifle round to go through them like butter. The dents you saw I suspect might have been from handguns.
By the way, the fact that some hunting rifles also use the small 5.56 calibre does not mean that they have the same penetrative power as the M16. Of more significance is the size of the cartridge, length of the barrel, profile and weight of the bullet etc. For example, the standard .22 bullet used in British gun clubs has a similar calibre to the M16, but not remotely the same penetrating power - just about enough to kill a rabbit over a couple of hundred yards.
Vara
Well-Known Member
A rifle round hitting a steel plate does not have to penetrate it to do damage,the action of bullet striking steel transfers large amounts of energy and bits of hot metal will often detach themselves from the inner skin and cause all sorts of problems,if the bullet does penetrate the steel it will quite often continue ricocheting within the structure unless restrained by soft tissue!
This is why a lot of bullet proofing is done using a double glazing principle.
Both a 7.62 and 5.56 Nato round will penetrate the old type of UK issue steel helmet at 200m,a 7.62 round will go straight through a standard gas bottle at 300m(and if followed up with some tracer rounds)creates a quite spectacular fire ball(this particular procedure does need careful timing to get it right).
The standard AK 47 round delivers a little less energy than either of the Nato rounds,but is still a very potent weapon.
This is why a lot of bullet proofing is done using a double glazing principle.
Both a 7.62 and 5.56 Nato round will penetrate the old type of UK issue steel helmet at 200m,a 7.62 round will go straight through a standard gas bottle at 300m(and if followed up with some tracer rounds)creates a quite spectacular fire ball(this particular procedure does need careful timing to get it right).
The standard AK 47 round delivers a little less energy than either of the Nato rounds,but is still a very potent weapon.
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Re: everyone with false passport
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't looking clever by naysaying. So far you've had no new ideas but every one else is oh so very wrong, or so it seems.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't insulting? Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand English. Now you say my posts are "casual" - is that not insulting either? Not sure what you meant by that, but my posts were well-thought out and based on my experience and/or reasoned supposition; where needed I backed up my point of view with some research, which I provided to the forum. You can stop making patronizing comments - I am quite calm, thank you. As for "fight", I was speaking figuratively as we are several thousand miles apart - I'm simply saying I'll engage in this silly argument if you insist, but it's getting off topic.
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't looking clever by naysaying. So far you've had no new ideas but every one else is oh so very wrong, or so it seems.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't insulting? Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand English. Now you say my posts are "casual" - is that not insulting either? Not sure what you meant by that, but my posts were well-thought out and based on my experience and/or reasoned supposition; where needed I backed up my point of view with some research, which I provided to the forum. You can stop making patronizing comments - I am quite calm, thank you. As for "fight", I was speaking figuratively as we are several thousand miles apart - I'm simply saying I'll engage in this silly argument if you insist, but it's getting off topic.
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Simon, you may be right. The only way we're going to sort this out, is to find someone with an AK and go shoot up a chunk of steel plate. Given the location of the most shot-up road signs, it is clearly hunters who do it; handgun hunting is not legal in Canada, so it is most certainly rifle fire. What you are talking about is .22 LR; I'm talking about .223 which is nearly identical to the military 5.56mm. Of course bullet composition and weight, as well as powder has a hand in the overall power of the bullet. Maybe someone on the forum has an AR-15 (civilian counterpart of the M16) and will be willing to sacrifice a road sign for science...
I think Colmce is correct that the bullet in its entirety does not necessarily have to penetrate the steel for it to still be effective. The roads signs often have holes - I've just never seen a round hole of sufficient diameter to have passed the whole bullet.
I think Colmce is correct that the bullet in its entirety does not necessarily have to penetrate the steel for it to still be effective. The roads signs often have holes - I've just never seen a round hole of sufficient diameter to have passed the whole bullet.
tcm
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Guns or Passports
Hm. I refer to yr original reponse. It doesn't have to get off topic. I didn't start the argument and it's your comments that made it silly, but no matter. Let's have a look.
Think about it (ok, even more carefully than normal) from your first post on the thread...
1) Having two passports is most certainly NOT "Just as likely to land you in jail as having an undeclared gun"as you said. This was, imho, a badly considered remark. We'll return to this.
2 ) "having two valid passports is contrary to international conventions as well as national laws. " This is not true. Many people have more than one passport. Some posted the same. You ignored them.
3) "You'd be suspect of being a forger, or worse, a terrorist. " This is not realistic.
A gun is a BIG alarm for an official, regardless of whether the gun is held legally or otherwise. Most Europeans (and the site is based in Europe) have never actually seen a real live gun, except as worn by a some foreign security officials. Still fewer have seen or heard one being fired. Perhaps the same applies to some part of North American. You tell us - but here in Uk and elsewhere, there are no guns for the whole of our lives. And if a bloke in a marina found that a neighbour in the marina had a gun, he would be very reasonable to creep back to his boat and call 999, and armed police would arrive. Guns are not normal.
A second passport is several orders of magnitude less alarming, and NOT " Just as likely" to indicate a terrorist on a cruisy saily boat trying to keep the basil plant alive and asking about the location of the nearest supermarket.
Remeber that the second passport(s) are in the carriers true name as well, with same photos. They aren't in the name of Mr and Mrs Jackal Bin Laden. Fake passport is one thing but not many real terorists have oops silly me, two passports, both british, sorry officer, see i applied and then the other turned up... Doesn't this have the ring of truth?
4 ) "Good luck with that." This a sign-off to a post packed with incorrect facts and assertions. Terminologically, something that is factualy wrong and said in a confident manner can reasonably decsribed as "casual". It's not a matter of ego at all - an issue you raised first. Il 's'accuse qui s'accuse, perhaps? Whatever.
Hey, it's not "insulting" to be wrong, or a bit wrong. I've been wrong. Have you never been wrong?
Yep, ok, it's an intersting tho minor point that having two passports could potentially be breaking a rule or two, but note they'd both be in your name and only one used as ID, which concurs with your research. But having two passports isn't as risky from most points of view as having a secret gun and some bullets.
Two passports is just a teensy bit more naughty than having two boat keys.
Somehwere around here you say, ok, "i just wanted to make the point about having and applying for spare passports might not be 100% pure as driven snow innocent/legal altho agreed i didn't mean it was anywhere near as dodgy as having loaded gun(s)" and that'll be all ok.
I promise not to go ner-ne ner-ne ner-ner and be dreafully har har. I'd just like vaguly factualish useful stufff here rather than not. I hope you do too
Hm. I refer to yr original reponse. It doesn't have to get off topic. I didn't start the argument and it's your comments that made it silly, but no matter. Let's have a look.
Think about it (ok, even more carefully than normal) from your first post on the thread...
1) Having two passports is most certainly NOT "Just as likely to land you in jail as having an undeclared gun"as you said. This was, imho, a badly considered remark. We'll return to this.
2 ) "having two valid passports is contrary to international conventions as well as national laws. " This is not true. Many people have more than one passport. Some posted the same. You ignored them.
3) "You'd be suspect of being a forger, or worse, a terrorist. " This is not realistic.
A gun is a BIG alarm for an official, regardless of whether the gun is held legally or otherwise. Most Europeans (and the site is based in Europe) have never actually seen a real live gun, except as worn by a some foreign security officials. Still fewer have seen or heard one being fired. Perhaps the same applies to some part of North American. You tell us - but here in Uk and elsewhere, there are no guns for the whole of our lives. And if a bloke in a marina found that a neighbour in the marina had a gun, he would be very reasonable to creep back to his boat and call 999, and armed police would arrive. Guns are not normal.
A second passport is several orders of magnitude less alarming, and NOT " Just as likely" to indicate a terrorist on a cruisy saily boat trying to keep the basil plant alive and asking about the location of the nearest supermarket.
Remeber that the second passport(s) are in the carriers true name as well, with same photos. They aren't in the name of Mr and Mrs Jackal Bin Laden. Fake passport is one thing but not many real terorists have oops silly me, two passports, both british, sorry officer, see i applied and then the other turned up... Doesn't this have the ring of truth?
4 ) "Good luck with that." This a sign-off to a post packed with incorrect facts and assertions. Terminologically, something that is factualy wrong and said in a confident manner can reasonably decsribed as "casual". It's not a matter of ego at all - an issue you raised first. Il 's'accuse qui s'accuse, perhaps? Whatever.
Hey, it's not "insulting" to be wrong, or a bit wrong. I've been wrong. Have you never been wrong?
Yep, ok, it's an intersting tho minor point that having two passports could potentially be breaking a rule or two, but note they'd both be in your name and only one used as ID, which concurs with your research. But having two passports isn't as risky from most points of view as having a secret gun and some bullets.
Two passports is just a teensy bit more naughty than having two boat keys.
Somehwere around here you say, ok, "i just wanted to make the point about having and applying for spare passports might not be 100% pure as driven snow innocent/legal altho agreed i didn't mean it was anywhere near as dodgy as having loaded gun(s)" and that'll be all ok.
I promise not to go ner-ne ner-ne ner-ner and be dreafully har har. I'd just like vaguly factualish useful stufff here rather than not. I hope you do too
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
OK - having a second passport is not as dodgy as having a loaded gun that is undeclared - I never said otherwise. I said it's just as likely to land you in jail. Maybe I overstated it, maybe not. Burglary is just as likely to land you in jail as murder, but you would agree murder is worse than burglary, n'est ce pas?
As for your second point, I acknowledged that there may be valid reasons for having a second passport; I didn't ignore that point. I offered that even having two passports which were legally obtained could still lead to problems. My point is that doing anything that is unconventional vis-a-vis passports could cause you a good deal of grief. There was a very recent incident where a fellow working in the UAE renewed his expired Brit passport and just moved the work visa from the old passport to the new one. Then some sharp-eyed customs fellow noted the discrepency in the passport numbers on the visa, and he landed in jail. http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolon...52-5b891c3feccc
Believe it or not, passports get forged, most likely for criminal reasons, but in this day and age, the chance of being suspected of terrorist activity cannot be dismissed. This is realistic.
Fact is, you can carry a gun, declare it and follow the rules of the port - surrender it, lock it up, whatever. All perfectly legal. What do you do with an illegally obtained passport? Declare it? Hide it and hope they don't find it? Either way you risk trouble.
"Good luck with that" means "feel free to do as you wish, but know the risks and be prepared to accept the consequences."
Passports vs boat keys - there are no rules against having copies of your keys. Which brings up the point that they're your keys; the passport is not - it belongs to the government.
I have been wrong, but it's been rare /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I was wrong to take the tone I did with you - sorry. Can we be friends and discuss this issue like gentlemen?
OK - having a second passport is not as dodgy as having a loaded gun that is undeclared - I never said otherwise. I said it's just as likely to land you in jail. Maybe I overstated it, maybe not. Burglary is just as likely to land you in jail as murder, but you would agree murder is worse than burglary, n'est ce pas?
As for your second point, I acknowledged that there may be valid reasons for having a second passport; I didn't ignore that point. I offered that even having two passports which were legally obtained could still lead to problems. My point is that doing anything that is unconventional vis-a-vis passports could cause you a good deal of grief. There was a very recent incident where a fellow working in the UAE renewed his expired Brit passport and just moved the work visa from the old passport to the new one. Then some sharp-eyed customs fellow noted the discrepency in the passport numbers on the visa, and he landed in jail. http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolon...52-5b891c3feccc
Believe it or not, passports get forged, most likely for criminal reasons, but in this day and age, the chance of being suspected of terrorist activity cannot be dismissed. This is realistic.
Fact is, you can carry a gun, declare it and follow the rules of the port - surrender it, lock it up, whatever. All perfectly legal. What do you do with an illegally obtained passport? Declare it? Hide it and hope they don't find it? Either way you risk trouble.
"Good luck with that" means "feel free to do as you wish, but know the risks and be prepared to accept the consequences."
Passports vs boat keys - there are no rules against having copies of your keys. Which brings up the point that they're your keys; the passport is not - it belongs to the government.
I have been wrong, but it's been rare /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I was wrong to take the tone I did with you - sorry. Can we be friends and discuss this issue like gentlemen?
hlb
RIP
Re: serious answer
It is a well known fact. Many people have two valid passports. Years ago I had two. Even lost one to Yugoslave police. Aparently I'd done something wrong. Eventualy got pissed off so carried on home on the other passport. Asked for passport back via, cant remember. Official chanels anyway. Other passport back in two days or so. No questions asked.
It is a well known fact. Many people have two valid passports. Years ago I had two. Even lost one to Yugoslave police. Aparently I'd done something wrong. Eventualy got pissed off so carried on home on the other passport. Asked for passport back via, cant remember. Official chanels anyway. Other passport back in two days or so. No questions asked.
tome
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
You're just plain vanilla wrong on the 2 passports, and I've legally travelled to many countries (including several vists to UAE) using either one of my 2 Brtitish passports, both issued by UKPA with full knowledge of my holding the other. All it took was for our visa department to apply for the second passport on the grounds that one was needed for travel whilst the other was used for visa applications. Perfectly legal UK so not much more to debate
Having got that one out of the way perhaps we can stop likening it to holding a firearm upon arrival
You're just plain vanilla wrong on the 2 passports, and I've legally travelled to many countries (including several vists to UAE) using either one of my 2 Brtitish passports, both issued by UKPA with full knowledge of my holding the other. All it took was for our visa department to apply for the second passport on the grounds that one was needed for travel whilst the other was used for visa applications. Perfectly legal UK so not much more to debate
Having got that one out of the way perhaps we can stop likening it to holding a firearm upon arrival
tcm
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Re: Guns or Passports
All fair enough.
Incidentally, it would be of interest to hear whereabouts you are. Guns are utterly and completely no-no in the uk. As i said (did i ? ) if someone in a marina was known to have a gun it would worryy most if not all, in Europe at any rate. "Oh, i've got a licence" wd not make me a whole lot happier. I can't imagine how happy an inspctor wd be about most boat inaards forming the basis for a secure gun case, tho dunno. Suppose i was rafted alongside, i wonder? erk!
In the uk and w med, i wd be pretty confident that nearly 100% if not 100% boaters have no gun. Someone would defintiely have blown someone away by now, and I wdn't be too far down any list, obviously...
All fair enough.
Incidentally, it would be of interest to hear whereabouts you are. Guns are utterly and completely no-no in the uk. As i said (did i ? ) if someone in a marina was known to have a gun it would worryy most if not all, in Europe at any rate. "Oh, i've got a licence" wd not make me a whole lot happier. I can't imagine how happy an inspctor wd be about most boat inaards forming the basis for a secure gun case, tho dunno. Suppose i was rafted alongside, i wonder? erk!
In the uk and w med, i wd be pretty confident that nearly 100% if not 100% boaters have no gun. Someone would defintiely have blown someone away by now, and I wdn't be too far down any list, obviously...
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
Tome - Do you travel abroad with both passports on your person?
Tome - Do you travel abroad with both passports on your person?
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
British Columbia Canada. I would guess there are few boaters who carry guns here too. There's the likelihood that there are some liveaboards that hunt. I think most gun-owners would not tend to advertise that fact, as they're just another desirable for burglars. Anyone know what the rules for visiting boats in UK/EU are regarding the carriage of firearms?
British Columbia Canada. I would guess there are few boaters who carry guns here too. There's the likelihood that there are some liveaboards that hunt. I think most gun-owners would not tend to advertise that fact, as they're just another desirable for burglars. Anyone know what the rules for visiting boats in UK/EU are regarding the carriage of firearms?
tome
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
I've only renewed 1 of the passports as I don't travel so frequently these days, but yes I would travel with both especially if there was a chance I would need to make a visa application whilst en route. I also enter Norway on a Norwegian passport and return to the UK on UK passports, never causes any problems.
I've only renewed 1 of the passports as I don't travel so frequently these days, but yes I would travel with both especially if there was a chance I would need to make a visa application whilst en route. I also enter Norway on a Norwegian passport and return to the UK on UK passports, never causes any problems.
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
I assume you're getting the in and out stamps put in the same book, yes? Were the two passports identical, with the same number? If not, I assume you used the passport for which the visa was issued?
With the two UK passports, do you show both to customs or just one? If just one, has the other ever been found by customs? Have you received any advice from UKPA regarding this?
I believe you when you say you had two passports issued by the agency as you obviously had a valid need, but you have to admit that is somewhat unconventional.
I assume you're getting the in and out stamps put in the same book, yes? Were the two passports identical, with the same number? If not, I assume you used the passport for which the visa was issued?
With the two UK passports, do you show both to customs or just one? If just one, has the other ever been found by customs? Have you received any advice from UKPA regarding this?
I believe you when you say you had two passports issued by the agency as you obviously had a valid need, but you have to admit that is somewhat unconventional.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Guns or Passports
Probably the Russians are biggest sticklers in the world for keeping to formalities.
My kids often travel under two national passports, British and Ukrainian. It's quite normal. When eg. leaving Russia the Russian immigration officials look at the Ukrainian one, see there's no visa and say "and how are you going to enter Britain?" (incidentally the Russians are fined lots of £££'s every time they let someone on a plane to Britain without the right to enter). Answer is to wave the British passports. Sometimes they enter a country on one passport and leave under another.
The Russians don't mind the fact that they have two passports, indeed ALL Russians who travel abroad are issued with a second passport anyway, as the standard passport is not designed for international travel outside the former Soviet Union.
Probably the Russians are biggest sticklers in the world for keeping to formalities.
My kids often travel under two national passports, British and Ukrainian. It's quite normal. When eg. leaving Russia the Russian immigration officials look at the Ukrainian one, see there's no visa and say "and how are you going to enter Britain?" (incidentally the Russians are fined lots of £££'s every time they let someone on a plane to Britain without the right to enter). Answer is to wave the British passports. Sometimes they enter a country on one passport and leave under another.
The Russians don't mind the fact that they have two passports, indeed ALL Russians who travel abroad are issued with a second passport anyway, as the standard passport is not designed for international travel outside the former Soviet Union.
tome
Well-Known Member
Re: Guns or Passports
Yes, go in and out on the same passport to keep entry/exit stamps synchronised except for Norway/UK where neither is stamped. The 2 UK passports had different numbers. I only show one to passport control. Recall all 3 fell out of my pocket going through Heathrow once but no hassle
When you say it's unusual, we employ some 58,000 world-wide and I would guess that 25-30% are regular travellers so generally have 2 passports (if allowed by the issuing state). No advice received from UKPA
Yes, go in and out on the same passport to keep entry/exit stamps synchronised except for Norway/UK where neither is stamped. The 2 UK passports had different numbers. I only show one to passport control. Recall all 3 fell out of my pocket going through Heathrow once but no hassle
When you say it's unusual, we employ some 58,000 world-wide and I would guess that 25-30% are regular travellers so generally have 2 passports (if allowed by the issuing state). No advice received from UKPA
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Well, I was going to get an AK47, but if it won't go through quarter inch steel then I guess I'll not bother, it's obviously a pansy's weapon. What do you reckon to an RPG, they should do nicely and I could probably convert the spinnaker pole.
What a ridiculous discussion - too much testosterone here, guns are for professional killer types like pirates.
Using your boat to ram the [--word removed--] seems like a much better idea - at least you re using a weapon you are familiar with.
It does look as though the Suez route is currently off the circumnavigator's agenda though . . .
- Nick
What a ridiculous discussion - too much testosterone here, guns are for professional killer types like pirates.
Using your boat to ram the [--word removed--] seems like a much better idea - at least you re using a weapon you are familiar with.
It does look as though the Suez route is currently off the circumnavigator's agenda though . . .
- Nick