Picking your brains.

[usernamenotvalid]

As you can see I'm new in here but you guys seem to have this area worked out. Am considering a bit of a sea change. Med looks nice hmm. Ok I have a UK and an Australian passport and am thinking of buying a used boat of less than forty foot long. Want to spend about five years cruising Greece, Turkey and mebbe Croatia. I have a recreational boating licence here in Queensland Australia and its good for recreational boats up to 15 metres length. Did quite a bit of sailing many years ago, no paperwork to prove this but would only be a bit rusty for a week or so. No problem, the boat I'm looking at has two engines to keep me out of, or get me into trouble to begin with. In terms of licencing do I need anything else to be motor sailing legally in the Med? Not understanding anything about VAT laws etc. Would it be smarter to use my UK passport or Aussie? Not sure whether or not I would want the boat to take back to Aus afterwards, would depend I spose. Done the costing on the boat+20%. Then I reckon I'd have about $140k to play with to live on for five years. On top of this I would leave another $100k for absolute emergencies. How much do you guys pay for a marina for a year? Nothing too flash but enough to keep a woman happy. Insurance on an old but rock solid boat per year? Would be spending about four months per year in either UK or Aus. So which would work out the best three or four months not to be in the Eastern Med? Average mechanical ability, metalworker, have built a couple of small boats and just stubborn enough not to want to pay for something I could do myself. Ssooooo
1 Licencing
2 Marina costs
3 Is that enough money
4 Insurance
5 Which is best passport to use.
Thanks in anticipation for your responses... Well it's either this or carry on working for another six years till I'm sposed to retire.
Cheers John.
Edit: oops, That's Aussie dollars, near enough to US dollars for my purposes. Me + wife.

 

[Tranona]

In most countries there is no legal requirement for visitors to have a licence but life is very much easier if you do have one. The most common is the International Certificate of Competence (ICC) which is issued by individual governments, usually on the basis of a local qualifying certificate or a specific test. You could get one of these in either Australia or the UK. You will need to find out which body issues them in Australia, but in the UK they are issued by the RYA www.rya.org You will also find information on taking your boat abroad - obviously UK orientated, but most has general relevance.

There are more restrictions on travel around Europe for non EU citizens with limited time visas, although there are proposals to relax this. So you are probably better starting off from the UK with a UK passport which gives you freedom of movement. Equally your boat can move freely provided it is VAT paid and UK registered. Normally you have to be resident in the UK to have a UK registration. Nearly all of the Med, northern edge is EU, but Turkey is not. You can take your boat to Turkey, but there are more formalities, some of which are annoying but not overly restrictive. However, if you buy a boat in Turkey you may have difficulty in bringing it into the EU.

The best places to buy boats are Greece and Croatia where there is a huge choice of boats in your budget. Most people buy a sailing boat rather than a power boat because the latter are generally designed just for short term use are hugely expensive to operate and the cost of fuel can severely limit you ability to cruise around.

In the Eastern Med - Croatia, Greece and Turkey there are many alternative ways of mooring your boat. Marinas are limited and very variable in price, but generally cheaper than the western Med. Many people live on their boats afloat in the summer, anchoring or using town quays then laying up in a boatyard in the winter. Mooring is probably the biggest single annual cost, but avoiding permanent marinas is relatively easy. Very little activity in the winter (November to April), so good time to lay up boat and spend the time down under!

Costs of general living vary according to your lifestyle. Basic food is much the same across Europe, but some things (wine and beer) and eating out tend to be cheaper in Greece and Turkey. A monthly budget of around 1500 Euros would provide a good lifestyle for a couple. Many spend much less and others more. Eating out and travel (car hire, land touring etc) can easily bust your budget. Insurance for your boat is essential, but if you are UK based many of the major yacht insurers will insure boats for the Med, and not particularly expensive. You will also need to consider medical insurance. Many EU residents are eligible for the EHIC which provides healthcare across Europe on a reciprocal basis. You will need to find out if you qualify for this.

There is masses of information available on what you plan to do, not least on this forum. Scroll down and you will find many threads on various aspects of cruising and living aboard as well as references to organisations, websites and publications for further information.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Started to write a reply , then I read Tranona posting , and deleted it , there not much more to be said I think he nailed it , I would just say. I would make sure you buy a vat paid boats .or you will for ever worrying about it , lot of boats in Greece are ex charter or some how have managed to not had paid the VAT , make sure you see the paper work .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Started to write a reply , then I read Tranona posting , and deleted it , there not much more to be said I think he nailed it , I would just say. I would make sure you buy a vat paid boats .or you will for ever worrying about it , lot of boats in Greece are ex charter or some how have managed to not had paid the VAT , make sure you see the paper work .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

I seem to meet someone new about every two months who hasn't paid the tax and doesn't seem to care much!

 

[TQA]

If your wife is travelling on a non EU passport say an OZ one then you have a problem to face. Many of the countries you would visit belong to the 'Schengen" group and a visit is limited to 90 days in any 180. This is actively policed by immigration officials across the countries with passport data being shared and substantial on the spot fines being levied. See http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Greece/General/RegionalAgreements and read the bit on Schengen Visas.

The idiots who drew it up never thought about cruising yotties.

You can live with it and just have to leave the Schengen group for a non Schengen country after 90 days.

To complicate matters the boat runs on a different clock.

There are ways around it but it is limiting

 

[usernamenotvalid]

Excellent! Thanks guys. Ok, we would/could both travel on UK passports. Can someone please clarify the following

However, if you buy a boat in Turkey you may have difficulty in bringing it into the EU.

Does my passport determine where the boat can freely travel?
How about being based in Turkey then touring, passing through EU places for short periods, say two to three months at a time? No real interest in North Africa Spain or Italy, maybe Malta, Cyprus, Israel, Greece, Turkey and Croatia. The boat I'm homing in on is currently registered in Holland, edit: ( Previously owned in the UK) built in the UK 30 years ago, surely VAT would have been paid at the initial sale, though I will check this out thoroughly before making a commitment to it.
This is all positive stuff, even the wife is becoming excited and that was the biggest hurdle. Still working out medical insurance, not apparently qualified for EHIC. Paid National Insurance for twenty years for nothing...
Thanks for you continuing enlightenment.
Cheers John

 

[sailaboutvic]

(However, if you buy a boat in Turkey you may have difficulty in bringing it into the EU.)

I'm not sure what you mean by that , I know many who have brought boat in Turkey and entered the EU with out problems ,
The only problem I can see Is if VAT as not been paid and in that case you are suppose to pay the VAT in the first EU country you enter .
I have to agree with Steve , there are lots of people in the Med that have boats that the VAT isn't paid , in totally I sailed in the MED 18 plus years on and off and not once have I been asked to see a VAT invoices . So I guess if you wanted to take a chance and not pay it you would probably get away with it , the problem arise when you come to sell it.
People we met and know. Have brought in Turkey , reg under the SSR and just sailed them in to Europe so far I not heard anyone who had a problem .
Maybe some one will come on and tell you something I not heard off .

Edited ... Croatia so I understand are asking people to show a T2L to prove VAT is paid , but we wasn't asked for any thing . Malta not interested in see VAT papers , North Africa , never been asked and there also not interested , Greece again never been asked , Spain could be a problem , I know many people who have been asked from VAT prove but only in some part in Spain . Israel Can't help you .


www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Tranona]

Just to clarify the rules on VAT. To move around the EU the boat needs to have evidence that VAT has been paid, or the boat is "deemed VAT paid". The former is usually in the form of a commercial invoice showing VAT or a receipt from customs if the boat was directly imported. The latter (deemed VAT paid) is concessionary and applies to boats that were 8 years old when the state in question joined the EU and were in that state. For most states the dates are older than 1986 and in the EU in 1992, but later joiners have different dates. That would probably apply to the boat you are looking at, but for obvious reasons the "evidence" to support that is often poor and variable. From some states you might get an official certificate, or it is recorded on the registration papers. However as others have noted there are rarely any checks, particularly in Greece, but there are in other states and the risk of being asked for evidence is always there. In theory the responsibility for VAT payments is in the state where you purchased the boat, but there is nothing to stop another state questioning payment. There is no VAT payments when boats change hands between private citizens in the EU - it is only initial sale or import.

The situation with Turkey is different. If a boat was sold directly there from the EU when new, VAT would not have been paid. Therefore if it enters the EU it is subject to VAT at the first stop - but again few states seem to do this, although it is not unknown particularly with boats coming from Croatia before they joined the EU. The lurking nasty however is that if a boat leaves the EU, even though VAT has been paid, and changes hands outside then it is potentially liable for VAT if it comes back in. There are many boats in Turkey that fall into both of these categories. This can be avoided (if VAT has already been paid in the EU) if the boat is in Turkey by sailing it to Greece and doing the transaction there.

Although all these rules exist the chances of falling foul are low, but the consequences are severe, not just paying the tax, but the associated fines and general hassle. Boats without evidence of payment and a history of being outside the EU can be very difficult to sell because risk averse people tend not to want to take on potential hassle. So it makes sense to buy a well documented boat - they are the majority and it is not difficult to spot ones that are dodgy.

If the boat is registered in the EU that normally means that the owner is EU resident (although not always) and the boat can move freely, but non EU residents are limited by their status under Shengen. Your UK passport may well allow you free movement, but your wife may be restricted. You need to take specialist advice on this.

 

[TQA]

With both of you able to travel on UK passports that eases matters considerably. Your next issue may be where to register the boat. UK SSR is not possible unless you show you are 'resident' in the UK but UK part 1 is possible.

If you stay for long periods in any one country then be careful of the tax rules on 'temporary' importation.

eg http://www.theiberianseaschool.com/latest-news/117-important-news-on-circulation-tax-a-light-dues-for-boat-owners-in-portugal

The rules are not always applied rigorously but can be a nasty gotcha.

 

[[27631]]

Chances are ....if your boat is a 1980's one...or earlier ...you may never get asked....if it is only a few years old..you will!! I have never been asked...but have always been in boats built 1977- mid 1980's..........
hope this helps....also...if you are in transit to a EU country ...I think you can argue that vat will be due in country of ultimate destination...not in country of transit..but... I MAY BE WRONG ..>..... so someone here will come along and clarify............I hope!