Perkins 4108 non starter

[Pete735]

Coming to the end of a 3 year restoration on my Evasion 32, I cannot get the engine started. Boat is in a cradle, I just want to check that engine runs for a few minutes and then I'll rig up a water feed and run it for a longer test period.

Engine turns over very slowly, despite charging up battery and cleaning all bat. terminals. I'm going to get a new battery and give that a go (I was planning on buying one anyway), but I've been told that the starting procedure is to have the throttle lever partially open, can someone confirm this is correct? I've not been doing this as when the lever is open even a small amount it puts the gearbox in gear, now my thinking is that this will increase the load and slow down even further the speed at which it turns over. What do other 4108 owners do?

There are many other issues with the engine and it's wiring, but being certain of the starting procedure would be a step forward.

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Roberto]

in my 4108 (I ve had two) I let the throttle slightly open -sort of, when engine has started it runs at around 1000rpm-


I found the 20ish seconds on thermostart are only needed when outside temperature is around freezing; with warmer weather, if I skip them the engine always starts in a split second



btw, in my engine I can open the throttle withtout engaging the reduction gear

 

[l'escargot]

My 4107 needs the throttle open full (I have seperate gear and throttle levers) and in cold or damp weather it also needs the diesel "cold starter" - these are the instructions in the owners manual too.

 

[allangray3]

I have a 4108 and engine was unrun for about 12 month period between purchase of boat and getting her home. Same problem whith engine failing to start. after trying all possible throtle preheat combinations called in diesel engineer (my son) it was found the injectors had frozen. £ 25.00 two day job at local engineers put back in and started first crank after bleading system. That reminds me have you bled the fuel system with new fuel. hope this helps.

 

[billskip]

All single lever controlls I have ever used had a button/knob which was used to disengage the gear cable allowing the throttle only to be set. If not you could disconnect the gear link at the gearbox for testing.

I would advise against even cranking the engine without a water supply and water in the indirect cooling system (if fitted) as its possible that the seals and impeller in the water pumps may get damage, especially as the engine has been standing for some time.

I started my 4108 with full throttle when starting from cold.

 

[Guest]

a) Throttle should have a button near centre - press this in and keep it pressed as you move throttle lever to desired position - this disengages the gearbox cable link....

I have never started my Perkins engines on full throttle .. I've had 2 ... the manual says to do this ... but I start with 1/4 to 1/3 throttle and it's been successful all time. I have an aversion to a screaming cold engine ... and to get to my throttle from start position is a long reach ...
My engine even at cold rarely needs any help ... unless battery is weak - then a whiff of Bradex sorts that .. AND with both Perk's I've had - use of Bradex / Easy-Start has not stopped them starting via Cold-Start aid or even without ...

Starting the engine ... running it for a short period .. few minutes should not be a problem - except longer periods can damage the cooling water impellor ... by running it dry.

If a raw water cooled engine as I have >>>>>> (similar applies to Heat Exchanger equipped as well ....)
My way of running the 4-107 I have ... same engine in most respects ... is to close of sea-water inlet ... open up top and lift out mesh filter ... have garden hose on and turned of at nozzle end. Start engine ... then insert garden hose into top of inlet and turn on water ... doesn't need to be too high a pressure ... in fact just enough to have sea-water inlet tube filling as the pump draws it to engine .. balance the two.
When you come to stop engine ... stop water first. Then engine. If you plan to leave engine over winter ... before stopping engine - pour in antifreeze to blow out of exhaust ... with mat or something over to stop any boats etc. near being covered ! Once Anti-freeze is through ... stop engine ... refit filter / top and close of.

Reason you don't have water running into system before and after engine running ... it will back-fill exhaust system and may get into engine ... causing seizure.

 

[willie4646]

Hi Pete, before rushing out and buy a new battery,Have you tried removing and cleaning the negative (earth) terminal from the engine casing, this is often the fault for losing battery power.

 

[mel80]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been told that the starting procedure is to have the throttle lever partially open, can someone confirm this is correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, but I'm not sure that this is your problem. I've got a 4-108, and I always use about 1/2 throttle when starting. However, this shouldn't affect the speed at which the engine is turning over. Before I read the engine manual I had always started the engine with no throttle and although it took a long time to start (if at all) the engine would still turn over at a fairly healthy sounding speed. Could it be an problem with the starter motor?

 

[JamesFrance]

OK so the engine turns over so is not seized. It would be better to wait until the boat is launched so as to give the impellor the best chance of survival as you will probably destroy it if the engine starts otherwise.

Diesels really do like a fully open throttle for starting, apart from these newfangled car engines, but be ready to cut the throttle IMMEDIATELY if it starts.

As has been said you should be able to operate the throttle independantly from the gearbox and for the one shown in my avatar we could pull the single lever outwards before turning it.

 

[Pete735]

Thanks for all the replies, stopped off at boat on way home tonight and discovered that centre button on throttle control pulls out and guess what, throttle operates only - I could have gone years never realizing that. Didn't want to try to start engine in the dark though!!

Water pump impellor, I removed it some 12 months ago and coated it liberally in vaseline, plus I have 2 brand new spares as back up.

Engine actually turns over pretty easily using a stillson on crank pulley, you can feel it coming upto compression points and then easing off.

I've had starter motor on bench ( in vice actually) and powered it up - it races round.

About 12 months ago I removed fuel prefilter and main filter, prefilter was v mucky inside, so was cleaned and new fuel filter fitted and then fuel bled to injectors, I'm hoping this area is still ok. Actual diesel in tank is probably about 5 years old, but tank was filled to top before boat was lifted out and diesel is clean enough for Eberspacher to run from it last winter, so I'm assuming it would at least start engine even though it may not run cleanly. I could run a temporary fuel supply to system if I had to though.

Initial problem though is the lethargic way it turns over, I have wondered about the battery leads as there is significant corrosion where cable goes into a couple of the connectors, cable is very heavy duty (way thicker than my car battery cable) so I don't want to replace it unless I'm completely convinced it's at fault. Can I put anything onto these cable ends to remove verdigris?

It's likely that corroded joints are contributing (despite my clean up efforts), but I don't want to replace cables and see no improvement.

 

[Lakesailor]

Get some jumper cables on and put the earth to the engine (preferably the starter motor) and the +ve to the big terminal on the solenoid (the one the battery cable is fixed to). It should start as normal, on the key. If it's cable problems you will have by-passed them.
If it's still a bit slow you could try touching the +ve jump lead to the other big terminal (the feed from the solenoid to the starter) to try a key-less start. Don't pussy-foot about though, make solid contact straight away or you'll get terrible arcing.
If it spins well it may be the solenoid contacts are dicey.

Spinning the starter with no load won't tell you much. It could still be the starter.

Try spinning the engine over with the injectors loosened (don't take the nuts off completely) If it spins well with no compression it may be the starter.

Probably best to try all these with a known-quality battery. Easy enough as you're using jump leads. (don't forget the key circuit needs connecting to a slave battery).

 

[captainslarty]

re the throttle pos, yes says full in the mercedes handbook for mine, but never needed more than a quarter.
try the following..

measure or get someone to measure the voltage at the starter with the engine turning, probabl poor connections somewhaere if running slow, most usual culprit is the earth connections.
Check the heater plugs, heater unit, you should see a heathy current draw when in operation.
Bkeed engine again through to injectors if needed.
if all ok, especiall starting and heating, and fuel is ther, it will start.

if you open the trottle with the sir filter off, and spray some wd40 into the intake as a real get ya going exercise.. makes a great starting aid...only use it as a last resort, not as the norm..
let us know your voltage readings at the battery with the heater plugs on, without starting, and then the voltage with starting, and yes, a good set of hd jump leads to bypass the main wiring is a good quick check, probably nothing wrong with the wiring.
it must turn over fast enough, and have compression, fuel and air, thats it really.

 

[jimbaerselman]

All good advice so far, except the manual does warn against direct injection of WD40, easy start etc into the manifold. A couple of further checks:

Is your 'easy start' on the inlet manifold working? (end position on starter switch). Does it heat up and release fuel vapour? That's much kinder than the more easily ignited WD 40.

Is there any waxing in your diesel fuel (common in boats that were last fuelled in the Med!)

 

[Guest]

One trick I was given by an engineer ... forget all the bumf about easy Start (Ether based sprays) and WD40 ...

The way to use them is to make sure you spray indirectly - not the liquid squirt into air-filter ... that will be a bomb to the engine. Let it "breathe" the vapour in to add to the diesel/air mix injected.

I actually reckon my tiny squirt ... I mean my press of Easy Start button is so short and at a distnace from the intake - that it can only just influence the job in hand.

FYI - Waxing of fuel will only normally start at about -5C - based on standard Diesel red or white bought in UK summer .. Winter is spec'd to be -15C or lower ..

 

[captainslarty]

re wd40, calder recommends it, good enough for me, in a last ditch attempt I would have no worries, dont think its a bomb at all, just a small spray.. not half a tin !!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
better than burning rags on the intake on a fishing boat I used to work on, or british seagul manual advising warming the cylinder and heard with a blowlamp lol.

 

[Guest]

I was just passing on a tip from a diesel eng'r ... He reckoned that they all have too much kick for an engine if liquid gets sprayed in ...

 

[Pete735]

Once again, thanks for the comments. Further work will probably have to wait until weekend. Having said that, a couple of points.

When demonstrated, prev owner fired up engine using easystart, said he always used it. During engine cleanup 12 months ago, I realised that cold start device is not connected electrically, almost certainly because it no longer works. I was taking the view that if it had started ok on easystart for previous 15 years, then it would almost certainly do the same for next 15 years - much as SBC has commented I think - I remember when he did it, he sprayed around intake for only a second or so, as I was surprised how effective it was - boat bought in November, so on the cool side!

On the use of jump leads, I would have done this, but starter solenoid is awkward to get at and I'm not going to risk it - solenoid is on my list of suspects as well. Starter motor is also awkward to get at so I don't want to attempt that as things stand, I think my best way forward is to make up a couple of substantial strips of copper or brass that I can bolt to starter motor studs and so extend studs above engine and use jump leads from there. I've also got another battery to try, it's in use daily on a diesel so shouldn't be too bad.

Thanks for all your assistance

 

[huldah]

I always use the cold start device to start my elderly Perkins 4108 from cold, even in summer. The more fuel, the easier the engine starts. So if conditions are a bit dodgy, such as frost or low battery, I open the throttle to max.

If you have not replaced your cold start device, I would recommend doing so.

Although unusual, starter motors can loose power, giving poor starting. My brother had this on his Perkins 6.354.

Philip