Penta MD22 won’t (re)start...?

[andyp]

On passage back from Weymouth the engine suddenly died, I thought out of fuel, so sailed her back in.
After a day trying, I can’t get the engine to restart.
20 litres of new clean diesel in tank, water separator topped up with clean fuel, bled to fine filter and No1 injector using lift pump manual handle.
Sea water filter cleaned. Sea water isolated after a few start attempts to prevent hydraulic lock.
Batteries fully charged and held at 13.5V by shore charger.
Starter motor turns, sounds healthy when switched on but still no ignition.
Main earth fuse and all three relays checked good for continuity.

Stumped... any ideas?

 

[RichardS]

Spray some East Start or WD40 into the air intake whilst trying to start it. If it starts for a few seconds then you know it's a fuel starvation/air lock/fuel pump problem.

I expect that she will start but of she doesn't then there's probably a compression problem.

Richard

 

[earlybird]

Was the original stoppage actually due to lack of fuel?
If so, there's probably air still in the system. I don't know the engine, but I'm surprised that you can bleed satisfactorily through to the injectors using the lift-pump. Don't you need to also bleed the HP side, or is it self bleeding?
Add:-Just looked at the owners' manual. The fuel connections need to be slackened on the 4 injectors and the engine cranked with the speed control on max.
Did you do this?

 

[Praxinoscope]

Hi

I’m not an expert on diesels but have re-built a couple over the years and serviced and installed them on my boats, but suggest that there are only a few reasons a diesel stops unexpectedly or won’t start as the diesel cycle is quite simple if there’s fuel getting into the engine and there’s good compression then ‘bang’ it will fire up. So why won’t it? Assuming the engine sounds as if it turning over OK when you turn the starter:
1. Fuel is not reaching cylinders, as you have bled the system as far as injector 1 this is unlikely but you could try undoing the fuel pipe at one of the injectors, turning the engine over and see if fuel comes through.
2. Dodgy fuel, but you seem to have covered that extensively.
3. Fuel is reaching cylinders but not igniting, could be lack of compression (head gasket failure), but on a four cylinder engine I wouldn’t expect such a major head gasket failure that it wouldn’t start only just two cylinders, so compression is probably not the problem, therefore is the fuel being injected at the correct point in the cycle, not easy to check but there may be a timing problem, diesels have critical timing requirements and the timing may have gone out, or just possible the timing belt has slipped or broken.
If it was a sudden stop during your passage rather than loss of power or erratic running before it stopped then I would certainly suspect timing.

1

 

[sailaboutvic]

On the MD 22 you have a timing belt , check it's ok and check the timing at the same time .
You not said why it stop , was it lack of fuel , or other reason ?

 

[scottie]

Check the stop solenoid is not faulty
The electrics on this engine are complex as it is a mix of earth and insulated returns

 

[VicS]

Spray some East Start or WD40 into the air intake whilst trying to start it. If it starts for a few seconds then you know it's a fuel starvation/air lock/fuel pump problem.

I expect that she will start but of she doesn't then there's probably a compression problem.

Richard

The owners manual for the MD22 says:



Quite apart from the minor inconvenience of personal injury it is generally a bad idea to use Easy Start etc in diesel engines because you have no control over the ignition timing as you do with petrol engines in which it is controlled by the spark timing. Mechanical damage can and does, as Stu Davies will confirm, occur as a result.

 

[VicS]

On passage back from Weymouth the engine suddenly died, I thought out of fuel, so sailed her back in.
After a day trying, I can’t get the engine to restart.
20 litres of new clean diesel in tank, water separator topped up with clean fuel, bled to fine filter and No1 injector using lift pump manual handle.
Sea water filter cleaned. Sea water isolated after a few start attempts to prevent hydraulic lock.
Batteries fully charged and held at 13.5V by shore charger.
Starter motor turns, sounds healthy when switched on but still no ignition.
Main earth fuse and all three relays checked good for continuity.

Stumped... any ideas?

Was the original stoppage actually due to lack of fuel?
If so, there's probably air still in the system. I don't know the engine, but I'm surprised that you can bleed satisfactorily through to the injectors using the lift-pump. Don't you need to also bleed the HP side, or is it self bleeding?
Add:-Just looked at the owners' manual. The fuel connections need to be slackened on the 4 injectors and the engine cranked with the speed control on max.
Did you do this?

As you say the procedure is described in the manual!

 

[Bobc]

I think the stop solenoid is energised to stop the engine on the MD-22, so unlikely to be that.

My bet would almost certainly be lack of fuel. Are you sure that the lift pump is working properly?

You only need to bleed to the secondary filter. The injection pump lives in a bath of fuel for lubrication, so doesn't want to be run when dry. It's all mechanical and although frighteningly is simple in its operation and rarely goes wrong.

If the cambelt had snapped, you would have bent valves and would know about it, so unlikely to be that (or the pump timing).

I would re-check your fuel system and re-bleed. Then shove the throttle open while you turn it over.

Do not use Easystart on it.

 

[RichardS]

The owners manual for the MD22 says:

View attachment 71887

Quite apart from the minor inconvenience of personal injury it is generally a bad idea to use Easy Start etc in diesel engines because you have no control over the ignition timing as you do with petrol engines in which it is controlled by the spark timing. Mechanical damage can and does, as Stu Davies will confirm, occur as a result.

In general, it is a bad idea as it is much better to fix the starting problem. However, as a one-off fault-finding tactic, it's fine.

Richard

 

[pcatterall]

First question is why did it stop? If you are certain that it was lack of fuel then that should allow you to forget some of the (quite sound theories postulated here)
So if its just a case of restarting after running out of fuel and you are now sure that you have clean air free fuel at the engine filter then it is 'just' a case of bleeding the HP side.
My method now is to just loosen all 4 injector connections and turn the engine over at high speed. As fuel gets through I tighten the connections one by one and usually after 2 are done the engine makes encouraging noises ! Nip up the others and all is usually well. Of course this is my trusty 4108 so the same method may not apply in your case but I have used it on several other engines.

 

[andyp]

As always, useful advice to follow here, thanks to all.

I had another go at bleeding the HP side, this time loosening the fuel connection to No1 injector and then turning the engine over on a remote starter so I could see what was happening. No joy but good flow of fuel out of the pipe.

I had also switched over to the other fuel tank after putting 10l of clean fuel in.

Tightened everything up, waited 10 minutes, gave it another go but this time from the key switch after pausing for 10 seconds in the Glow position (something I have never normally done). Could hear cylinders trying to combust and after a second start I now have a smooth running engine with no fuel leaks and good cooling water flow.

So I think it was fuel starvation but I don’t know why it stopped so suddenly and I don’t know why it only restarted after a glow period on the hottest day of the year?! Coincidence...

I will fill both tanks with good diesel and monitor the engine closely but thanks again to all the forum experts.

Cheers, Andy

 

[Bobc]

Good to hear that you got it started. Ususal reasons for conking out are:-

1./ Blocked primary fuel filter
2./ Blocked fuel tap (crud/swarf being pulled ut of the tank when in it gets bumpy).

 

[Heckler]

As always, useful advice to follow here, thanks to all.

I had another go at bleeding the HP side, this time loosening the fuel connection to No1 injector and then turning the engine over on a remote starter so I could see what was happening. No joy but good flow of fuel out of the pipe.

I had also switched over to the other fuel tank after putting 10l of clean fuel in.

Tightened everything up, waited 10 minutes, gave it another go but this time from the key switch after pausing for 10 seconds in the Glow position (something I have never normally done). Could hear cylinders trying to combust and after a second start I now have a smooth running engine with no fuel leaks and good cooling water flow.

So I think it was fuel starvation but I don’t know why it stopped so suddenly and I don’t know why it only restarted after a glow period on the hottest day of the year?! Coincidence...

I will fill both tanks with good diesel and monitor the engine closely but thanks again to all the forum experts.

Cheers, Andy

Just spotted this. The MD22 usually bleeds easily and I dont usually have to bleed to the injectors. I have fitted a squeezy bulb from the tank which makes it easier. Usually opening the bleed screw on top of the engine mounted filter, squeeze until air is out and it is good to go. The Bosch VE injector pump actually has a centrifugal vane pump inside it before the hi pressure swash plate pump so it is almost self bleeding. Just check the there isnt a little gauze filter inside the tank on the stack pipe that might have caused the original stoppage.

 

[peter gibbs]

Sudden engine death almost certainly fuel; if fuel filter showing clogging you have your answer.

? Blockage to outlet pipe from tank? Outside chance of collapse to inner lining of fuel pipes from tank? Ensure all pipes clear by blowing through with air pump.

Try Easy start but first spray into intake some aerosol oil when turning over in case valve seating not 100%.

PWG

 

[RichardS]

Sudden engine death almost certainly fuel; if fuel filter showing clogging you have your answer.

? Blockage to outlet pipe from tank? Outside chance of collapse to inner lining of fuel pipes from tank? Ensure all pipes clear by blowing through with air pump.

Try Easy start but first spray into intake some aerosol oil when turning over in case valve seating not 100%.

PWG

Easy Start is not warmly welcomed in these parts. :-(

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

Easy Start is not warmly welcomed in these parts. :-(

Richard

Richard I disagree in my early days working on London taxi cab , we used it a lot and again later when I was one of many Akson owner we used it on the engine in winter times and also on the donkey engine that operated the tippers only problem was once used you would find the engine would get addicted to it .
In really really cold weather , it nothing to see people set light to paper and stick it in their air filter , not that I suggesting doing that in you boat -(

 

[RichardS]

Richard I disagree in my early days working on London taxi cab , we used it a lot and again later when I was one of many Akson owner we used it on the engine in winter times and also on the donkey engine that operated the tippers only problem was once used you would find the engine would get addicted to it .
In really really cold weather , it nothing to see people set light to paper and stick it in their air filter , not that I suggesting doing that in you boat -(

No disagreement between us Vic.... it's the others.

Richard