Payment of VAT in Greece ?

G

gregorymc

New Member
Joined
28 Feb 2005
Messages
10
Location
Somewhere between France and Faroes
Visit site
I'm planning to take a non VAT paid yacht from Greece to UK this summer. Does anyone know where in Greece i can pay the VAT.? I'm currently based in Poros. Who decides the value of the yacht as its now worth less than it was before the recession? What papers do i need to show,? and finally do you think i would get passed the customs of other countries en-route considering i will visit Sicaly, Majorca, Portugal and mainland Spain without paying it. Would it be an idea to plead ignorance but have the money ready when someone asks for it.
 
If you purchased the boat from an EU resident then you do not have to pay any VAT. You need the Bill of Sale to show that the transaction took place in Greece, then no other state will have any interest in tax. If, on the other hand you purchased the boat from a dealer who was trading (ie not a private citizen) then payment of VAT was his responsibility.

One of the difficulties with Greece is that prior to 2002 or so, many boats changed hands from charter companies (which did not pay VAT) without paying VAT - perfectly legal at the time under Greek law but subsequently banned by EU.

The reality is that you are most unlikely ever to be asked for proof of VAT, particularly if it is an older boat. Just make sure you have a registration document, Bill of Sale and insurance certificate and this is all that is asked for - plus of course your personal documents.
 
To apply for an SSR you must be a UK resident, but the boat can be anywhere in the world.
It's perfectly possible for a UK resident to own an SSR registered boat, that's VAT unpaid.
 
Yes, there is no connection between registration and VAT.

The only document that matters is the Bill of Sale because this is evidence of the nature of the transaction. If it was between two private EU citizens then it is not a "chargeable event".

There is, however a residual issue that if the revenue did think a VAT offence had been committed then having a VAT receipt for a chargeable transaction (such as from the builder to the original owner) is useful. However a lack of VAT receipt is very common and does not present problems - mainly because the revenue, wherever they are have much more important things to do than investigate ordinary old yachts!
 
VAT paid or not? to gregorymc

I would seriously advise you to reconsider sailing across the Mediterranean without proof of VAT paid on your boat. If you are an EU resident sailing a private pleasure craft in EU waters, the boat has to be VAT deemed paid to be legal. You may be asked to provide proof of VAT paid status at any time. The fact that you know it's not VAT paid makes it worse.
Don't take my word for it, read the legal text:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/ukpga_19940023_en_8#pt4-pb2-l1g72

72
Offences
(10) If any person acquires possession of or deals with any goods, or accepts the supply of any services, having reason to believe that VAT on the supply of the goods or services, on the acquisition of the goods from another member State or on the importation of the goods from a place outside the member States has been or will be evaded, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty of level 5 on the standard scale or three times the amount of the VAT, whichever is the greater.

You'd potentially be liable for 3 x the actuall VAT.
I would urge caution..........
All the best:cool:
 
plato-gb said:
You may be asked to provide proof of VAT paid status at any time.
Click to expand...

The RYA tried very hard to prove this myth but they seem to have failed. I have never found any officials throughout the Med to take the slightest interest in VAT paid status and don't recall anybody here claiming to have needed to prove it. So I fear your statement to be scaremongering.

I do know a famous yachtsman who bought his boat in USA and sailed it back to Europe. He put a red ensign on it, registered it with SSR and did not pay any VAT. His VAT status has never been questioned.
 
When we bought our boat in Greece There is a process where you have a solicitor Get a special paper to explain "All taxes paid" this paper is the thin line between being legal and having to pay VAT, as the paper is in Greek .I cannot tell you what it says .But it has eight different official stamps on it.

This was the method that Chris Hawes at yacht fraction used for years, It if very different now

red
 
to vyv_cox - re gregorymc's question

Read this post:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/how-much-red-tape-in-the-mediterranean-21675-2.html
06-09-2009, 03:33 #24
beneteau-500
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Naxos Cyclades islands greece
Boat: beneteau-500 clipper 15.45 Idylle6

Posts: 52
Re go boating now Remark on the vat thing being nonsense this yr alone in the port of Naxos( Greek Island/ Cyclades ) two yachts have been impounded for this as the owners produced doc's of which they stated was a proof of vat paid on there yachts ( these yachts where from an eu country) when infact they just made them up on there own computer , and so far 7 charter yachts have been stopped going any further because none of the crew of these yachts could prove any form of sailing qualification, the authorities are starting to clamp down more and as i live on Naxos for nine months of the yr i see them more and more doing inspections on yachts and when i return every April they just ask to see my insurance papers and vhf licence

Why would he lie?
 
vyv_cox said:
The RYA tried very hard to prove this myth but they seem to have failed. I have never found any officials throughout the Med to take the slightest interest in VAT paid status and don't recall anybody here claiming to have needed to prove it. So I fear your statement to be scaremongering.

I do know a famous yachtsman who bought his boat in USA and sailed it back to Europe. He put a red ensign on it, registered it with SSR and did not pay any VAT. His VAT status has never been questioned.
Click to expand...

"So I fear your statement to be scaremongering."

You've been in Greece too long vyv_cox, I would suggest one should be very wary with the Spanish and French to my knowledge.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Last edited:
plato-gb said:
Read this post:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/how-much-red-tape-in-the-mediterranean-21675-2.html
06-09-2009, 03:33 #24
beneteau-500
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Naxos Cyclades islands greece
Boat: beneteau-500 clipper 15.45 Idylle6

Posts: 52
Re go boating now Remark on the vat thing being nonsense this yr alone in the port of Naxos( Greek Island/ Cyclades ) two yachts have been impounded for this as the owners produced doc's of which they stated was a proof of vat paid on there yachts ( these yachts where from an eu country) when infact they just made them up on there own computer , and so far 7 charter yachts have been stopped going any further because none of the crew of these yachts could prove any form of sailing qualification, the authorities are starting to clamp down more and as i live on Naxos for nine months of the yr i see them more and more doing inspections on yachts and when i return every April they just ask to see my insurance papers and vhf licence

Why would he lie?
Click to expand...

Your example is not remotely like the OPs situation. Of course the authorities may make life difficult if they believe an offence has been committed (be it VAT or whatever).

The OP has a UK registered boat with a Bill of Sale saying it was purchased from a UK citizen resident in the EU. There is no reason for any official to ask about VAT because any VAT issues are the responsibility of UK HMRC.

As Vyvcox has pointed out there is no evidence that the authorities in any EU country are the least bit interested in VAT except if they believe their own residents (but also other EU residents) are committing an offence (for example by importing a boat from outside the EU without paying VAT). So the Greek authorities might be interested in a boat coming from Turkey where the documents showed it was purchased outside the EU, and the Italians if the boat came from Croatia, or the French or British if the boat came from the Channel Islands.

In the case of my boat, I bought it in Greece, so my Bill of Sale is a Greek one. I keep the VAT receipt because I did not buy it from a private Greek resident. So when I bring it back to the UK I need to prove that VAT has been paid, if asked. However, once I sell it to another EU resident, the receipt becomes relatively meaningless because there is no VAT on sales between private EU residents. The Bill of Sale will state the boat is free of any encumbrance - supported by my VAT receipt and the confirmation from the Greek registry that I bought it free.
 
reddragon44 said:
When we bought our boat in Greece There is a process where you have a solicitor Get a special paper to explain "All taxes paid" this paper is the thin line between being legal and having to pay VAT, as the paper is in Greek .I cannot tell you what it says .But it has eight different official stamps on it.

This was the method that Chris Hawes at yacht fraction used for years, It if very different now

red
Click to expand...

This is way out of date. VAT has been payable on ex charter boats since 2002. I bought my boat through Chris Hawes/Kiriacoulis and paid VAT at 19% when it was transferred at the end of the contract. I have the receipt.
 
Is gregorymc still 'in the building'?

or are we now just talking to each other? gregorymc, some questions:
Where are you resident?
Did you buy the boat as a private individual?
Is the boat now re-registered in your name/your company's name/other?

Under which register? You say boat was owned by UK citizen and was under SSR. Does this mean seller sold as private individual and boat was registered under SSR part 3?
How old is the boat?

When you say the boat is not vat paid, do you mean vat was never paid on the boat or that you didn't pay vat when you bought it? On the bill of sale your seller must have shown you as part of the documentation when you bought the boat: is it shown that he bought it from another private individual?
Greek? English?
Did he buy it from a charter company?

If you can answer some of these questions it will clarify your situation and you will get the advice you need.

:cool:
 
The key relevant questions:
1. Were both buyer and seller EU residents at the time of the sale?
2. Was the boat in the EU at the time of the sale?
3. Plus plato-gb's questions above.

The first thing that struck me about your post is that you said it was not VAT paid. What exactly did you mean? Again see plato-gb's post.
 
grumpygit said:
"So I fear your statement to be scaremongering."

You've been in Greece too long vyv_cox, I would suggest one should be very wary with the Spanish and French to my knowledge.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Click to expand...

Only 2.5 years in Greece. Before that in France, Spain and Italy. Before that seven years in Holland. I'm not pretending to be a representative sample on my own but I have shown my documents to many officials in all of these countries, plus to Customs people on a few occasions. Nobody has ever asked to see anything to do with VAT.

Widening it somewhat, the RYA asked members to furnish evidence of this 'problem'. It would seem that the response was very limited, or zero. I can believe that anyone entering Spain from Gibraltar in a large, expensive yacht or motorboat might raise a few eyebrows. Otherwise it seems to be a non-event.
 
plato-gb said:
or are we now just talking to each other? gregorymc, some questions:
Where are you resident?
Did you buy the boat as a private individual?
Is the boat now re-registered in your name/your company's name/other?

Under which register? You say boat was owned by UK citizen and was under SSR. Does this mean seller sold as private individual and boat was registered under SSR part 3?
How old is the boat?

When you say the boat is not vat paid, do you mean vat was never paid on the boat or that you didn't pay vat when you bought it? On the bill of sale your seller must have shown you as part of the documentation when you bought the boat: is it shown that he bought it from another private individual?
Greek? English?
Did he buy it from a charter company?

If you can answer some of these questions it will clarify your situation and you will get the advice you need.

:cool:
Click to expand...

You are making a meal of this. Yes, all these issues may be relevant. It is possible that it is an ex charter boat sold to a private individual before about 2002 when Greek law changed. However, if the Bill of Sale shows that the current owner purchased it from a private EU resident (which seems likely given it was on the SSR) then no VAT was due. The lack of evidence of VAT having been accounted for in a previous transaction (if it were due) is a nuisance, but largely irrelevant. He is in no different position from thousands of other boat owners.

As I and others have pointed out, there is no evidence that ordinary yachtsmen are asked to produce evidence of VAT when moving around the EU with a privately owned EU boat. Where the authorities might be interested is if the documentation shows that the last transaction in the boat's history could have been a chargeable event. My boat is like that because my Bill of Sale is from a corporate body to a private individual, where one would expect VAT to be relevant (because it is that kind of transaction). So I have the VAT receipt. Another common situation is where the Bill of Sale was outside the EU and the boat is entering the EU. The person importing has to pay VAT unless they are eligible for exemption or temporary importation.

Anyway, if there is any irregularity in accounting for VAT some time in the past it is not normally the problem of the current owner. The very nature of VAT is that it is not attached to the boat, but related to the transaction. As there is no transaction taking place when he moves the boat then there is no way he can ever be asked to pay VAT. All the responsibility for accounting for VAT is with the seller, not the buyer (as I remind myself every time I do my VAT return).
 
Tranona, you have a vat receipt for your vessel.

Your paperwork is in order so you have no worries.

What is at issue here is whether gregorymc wants to take the risk of incurring a sizeable debt on his journey back to the UK.

If he choses to do so, that is up to him and we'll all keep our fingers crossed.
However, it is irresponsible to encourage him to take such a risk without informing him correctly on what the downside is.
There is a very real possibility that at some stage of what is a fairly long journey, he will be asked to show ship's papers (including vat status documentation).
He would then be found in contravention of EU legislation if his boat is VAT not paid (as he states in his post). In such a situation, telling an Italian, Maltese or Spanish customs official that Tranona said it was ok and that vyv_cox said so too is not going to do any good.

I suggest we wait for gregorymc to answer the questions asked by bbg and me so that we can make useful and relevant contributions. In this case, he will be able to make an informed decision for himself on what to do regarding the VAT on his boat.
:cool:
 
Plato - not wanting to put words into Tranona's mouth, but the short point he makes is that VAT can be due on transactions but not on objects.
If the boat was purchased in the EU, by an EU resident, from an EU resident, no VAT is due on that transaction.
If the boat was purchased outside the EU and imported into the EU, VAT would be due on the import transaction - and the importer would be liable.
If the boat was purchased in the EU from a non-EU resident, the sale would amount to a deemed import and VAT would be due on that deemed import transaction.
Based on my understanding from jfm's posts on other threads - and he seems extremely knowledgeable about the subject - there are very limited circumstances in which a VAT obligation sticks with any object.
I have no VAT proof for my boat. What I do have is a chain of ownership dating back three owners, all EU residents, all having registered the boat in the EU, to me - an EU resident. I'm not worried.
 
Plato. I am sorry, but you are just wrong. If the Bill of Sale is between two UK residents (as seems to be the case) then any VAT issues are the responsibility of UK HMRC. This is EU wide, so there is no reason why any official in any other country should ask to see proof of VAT paid. If you are a nerd like me and follow this subject closely on these fora and in the press, you will find there is no credible evidence that this is not the case. The RYA have also carried out surveys to find cases without success.

Where people have had issues with proof of VAT it is because there is an issue about the ownership of the boat or the nature of the transaction. The most common examples are home built boats where there is no Bill of Sale and it is necessary to keep records of VAT payments on at least the major components, boats that are bought outside the EU and boats that are bought from a VAT registered trader such as mine. Even then, if I did not have the receipt, I would not be charged VAT - because it was the responsibility of the trader to account for the VAT, not me.

The OP has already confirmed that he bought the boat from a UK citizen, so if his Bill of Sale records this correctly there is absloutely no way any customs could ask him to pay VAT because there is no transaction. As I have already said even if there was an irregularity in the past - it is not his responsibility, but the responsibility of the seller that committed the offence. However, if the offence was committed more than 6 years previously it is almost impossible to prove one way or the other as there is no obligation for a VAT registered trader to keep records for longer than that. There are no records of the transaction other than the trader's records and the invoice to the purchaser.

There is a lot of misinformation surrounding this subject, such as yours - but of course if you have documented proof that private individuals have been forced to pay VAT by any customs authorities except where the boat has been brought in from outside the EU, then please share it with us.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top