Passage plan or risk assessment?

[Cornishman]

The front page of the September edition of Boating Business refers to the SOLAS Chapter V requirements which are being enforced by the MCA as 'mandatory for a skipper to undertake a risk assessment of his planned voyage'. The report goes on to quote the technical director of the British Marine Federation (BMF) Nik Parker who said, 'It's about having taken due care and attention'
Does this muddy the waters even further, or clarify them?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Anybody would think that sailing had just been invented!

"Og, is it too rough to cross the river on the tree trunk today?"

"Dunno Ug, lets do a risk assessment and work out whether to set out or not"

 

[claymore]

Agree with that and haven't risk assessments become trendy nowadays!

regards
Claymore

 

[halcyon]

Is not passage planning and risk assesment the same thing, but less trendy, and in the old days known as seamanship.


Brian

 

[Guest]

So far what has been published for the sailor is a total mess. The RYA should have thrown the whole thing back at the authorities and meanwhile told yachtsmen and boaters to ignore all statements in this area until clarification had been obtained.

 

[bedouin]

I would say that risk assessment is a part of passage planning. By emphasizing that aspect it may concentrate the mind on the safety aspect, rather than the navigation / scheduling elements of the plan, which much be the objective of the SOLAS requirement.

That said, a risk assessment isn't much use without a risk management plan!

 

[iangrant]

Risk assesments are developed by the new breed of Health and Safety managers generated by the HSE to slow the worlds projects in their tracks!!

"CDM" Projects more than 4 men on site for 30 days have to be notified to the HSE.

My Imaginary Risk Assesment - Hayling Bridge railing replacement-

Risk - Falling From Height (into water (when there)), Drowning
Level of Risk - Death
Action & instruction to minimise risk
Wear lifejackets

Trouble is it couldn't have said do them up, or wash them now and again - Not sure what the hard hats are for? In case they land on their heads with the tide out?

Anyway imagine the proper risk assesment for sailing?

Risks:
Boom hitting head
Sinking
Fire
Engine failure
Tidal streams
Tidal heights
Navigation equipment failure
Collision
Running aground
Falling overboard
Falling down the steps
Sails jamming
Rope burns
Slipping on deck injury........................
## Please add another couple of hundred at will!!

If you ever took a H&S man sailing he'd never get it written on his clipboard before the tide turned!

Nanny State?

Food for thought

Ian

 

[jimi]

Och Iain, you've only done half a job there ... to do a proper risk assessment you've also got to evaluate probabilities!

That's really where passage planning really comes in, risk assessment & contingency planning, we do it all the time .... but normally we just call it common sense.

Jim

 

[halcyon]

The one worry is that since they introduced the HSE to the railways, we seam to have more rail accidents, does that mean even larger insurance premiums to cover the increase in marine related incidents ?


Brian

 

[iangrant]

Jimi

Risk - Falling From Height (into water (when there)), Drowning
Level of Risk - Death

That's the evaluation bit!

We all do it at the time, automatically with experience - but do we write it down in the log?

Ian

 

[kgi]

I agree with you and Ian Grant, its the thin end of the wedge, and yes we are turning into a nanny state, but what are we going to do about it?, more to the point whats the RYA going to do about it?, my guess is,.. nothing, theyr'e not bothered about us, they have moved into the competition world, more money more exposure, we as ordinary joe bloggs cruising sailors are a minority, and more trouble than we are worth. Alternatives? start an action group for SAILORS after all its not just this is it its our right to anchor, our right to use all navigable waters, look at the river going up to Ipswich for instance our forefathers had rights to walk the banks being bargemen(sailors) those rights have gone, and its only going to get worse unless some group/association/committee,stands up for our rights sailing in the UK as we know it is dead, .......said my peice,.. whose the first to step forward and deny what is happening,...set myself up for a crucifixion ..lets hear it.............keith

 

[sailbadthesinner]

'It's about having taken due care and attention'

On that phrase have hinged millions in lawyers fees. That doesnot clear the waters.
It just sets out the boundaries within which you have the argument

It is like everything else. we can all rely on the fact that we manage without written plans until something goes wrong and it ends up in a court room. It seems that inside these rooms the normal rules of nature and common sense do not exist.

Accidents donot just happen, everything is someone's fault. a freak wind doesn't catch and broach the boat, they are going to try and hang the blame on skippers for anything, that is my worry. rant over.

Beer! Now there's a temporary solution.

 

[Cornishman]

By now I would have thought that everybody knows that anarchy gets you nowhere. When did it last succeed?
The BMF has been distributing a pamphlet at SBS, I understand, although I have yet to see it. The MCA didn't know much about it either, and it came into force on the 1st of July. The MCA, the RYA and the BMF have been doing their best to get the information out to us as soon as they can find out what it is! Until then...don't hold your breath.

 

[jimi]

With due respect, thats not risk assessment its just a list of possible outcomes.
Risk assessment is situation analysis, possible outcomes, magnitude of impact, & probablity of occurrence.

ie
Situation
Standing on Hayling Bridge
Possible Outcomes + probability + magnitude of outcome
Fall off 0.01% Die 80% Live 20%
Hit by low flying plane 0.0001% Die 100%
Remain there 99.9899 Live 99.99% Die 0.01% (might have a heart attack)

So the risk associated with standing on the bridge is not high and one that we would be prepared to take despite there being three possible but very low probability outcomes of death.

This is normally evaluated subconciously and is known as commonsense in everday life, likewise is second nature to an experienced sailor and is almost unconciously built into a passage plan whether its in one's head or put to paper.






Jim

 

[Ohdrat]

Ig MCA cave painter (Caveman bureaucrat) there is (prehistoric) shark please ensure that you do not dangle your feet in the water should you take to your log

(NB it's a river estuary so please do not point out that sharks are mainly marine ....yes there is a fresh water shark in lake Nicaragua!)

 

[BrendanS]

For what it's worth, I spoke to a very helpful legal bod at the RYA a while back, re passaging planning for our RYA affiliated club cruises.

His answer was illuminating. Nothing actually has to be written down, and the level of planning should be 'commensurate' with the voyage undertaken.
Legal stuff aside, he gave me a practical example.

On the recent Round the Island race, with 1600 boats, probably 1200 were experienced, knew their way around, and the associated dangers, and probably
took at look at the tides and weather forecast before they set out. This is
perfectly acceptable planning for an experienced skipper and crew. The other
400 boats probably got some charts out and did more detailed planning. If
they didn't, then they probably didn't have an acceptable passage plan.

So, basic common sense seems to be the order of the day

 

[iainmillett]

Any yachtie worth his salt will do a passage plan - whether cerebral or written will no doubt depend on quite what is involved.

Risk Assessment is a term that I have seen used in banking and other commercial areas to evaluate business ventures eg trading operations etc

Quite honestly, it is a load of 'balls' - when you see characters like Captain Calamity putting to sea without so much as a sweater......

What we all need is training for the job in hand and a fearsome respect for the sea to put us all to the sword if we're not careful.

 

[oldharry]

Sorry Jimi - your risk assesment of Hayling Bridge is incomplete, you have not allowed for crazed motorists trying to negotiate the traffic jams / driving into pedestrians because they are looking at the 'pretty boats'/ risk involved in crossing the road because one footp[ath is closed for maintenance/ likelihood of being struck by object falling from aircraft (it is directly under one of the Gatwick Flightpaths) /outer space/ passing vehicle (the footways are or were quite narrow).

Next is the risk of being set on and mugged or murdered by the yobs from Leigh Park just up the road.

Then you must add the real risk of a vessel hitting the bridge while you are standing on it - risk from gear falling from masts, masts falling on to bridge, bridge collapsing altogether......


Then I suppose you have to go on to the risk of earthquake damage ( S England is apparently in an earthquake zone).

A 'full' risk assesment must look at ALL the possibilities if nanny state is to be satisfied, or more importantly if you are to have a chance of winning in court.....

oh, help.......!

 

[oldharry]

Re earthquakes

I just KNEW I was right to include an earthquake in my risk assesment!