Paperwork problems in Portugal

[jtarmey]

Has anyone else out there been asked for a T2L document for their boat in Portugal?

We had a great summer 2011 sailing our Nordwest 42 to Vilamoura, we plan to continue in to the Med at end of summer 2012

Customs in Portugal contacted us 10 days ago saying we need to povide them with T2L document as proof of community status. Had never heard of it and assumed VAT vertificate, small ships register number, invoice for boat etc sufficient proof.

Contacted HMRC who say T2L not appropriate for pleasure yachts but very helpful official prepared to produce one to get us off hook. HMRC say Portugal only member state requesting T2L which is related to shipping freight and they plan to take matter up in Brussels. RYA say has been court case in Portugal where boat owners lost and had to pay 20,000 euros for not possessing T2L.

Does anyone have details of this case or know anyone who has been asked for this document?

If you are planning to sail to Portugal please be aware of this potential problem.

Judy T

 

[Tillernut]

I'm sure I've just read a post on the lounge with a link to a site with all this info on. http://www.jimbsail.info

 

[GrahamM376]

Has anyone else out there been asked for a T2L document for their boat in Portugal?

We had a great summer 2011 sailing our Nordwest 42 to Vilamoura, we plan to continue in to the Med at end of summer 2012

Customs in Portugal contacted us 10 days ago saying we need to povide them with T2L document as proof of community status. Had never heard of it and assumed VAT vertificate, small ships register number, invoice for boat etc sufficient proof.

Contacted HMRC who say T2L not appropriate for pleasure yachts but very helpful official prepared to produce one to get us off hook. HMRC say Portugal only member state requesting T2L which is related to shipping freight and they plan to take matter up in Brussels. RYA say has been court case in Portugal where boat owners lost and had to pay 20,000 euros for not possessing T2L.

Does anyone have details of this case or know anyone who has been asked for this document?

If you are planning to sail to Portugal please be aware of this potential problem.

Judy T

We've been here for 6 years now (swing mooring off Faro) and have never heard of this before, nor has anyone I've spoken to. Usual inspection is SSR, insurance, passports but nothing else. From time to time fines are threatened for no life jackets in tender, safety equipment not up to their "ocean" category but haven't come across anyone actually fined yet.

How did customs contact you? Was this a during a "walk-around" the marina or, via the office records?

 

[jtarmey]

Thanks for the link Tillernut, yes we made contact with Central Processing Unit, HMRC having called that help number.

RYA are also following this up, they are in contact with a chap called Ray Cotton, head of Unit of Expertise for Pleasure Craft at HMRC.

Still haven't heard of anyone else who has been asked for this form T2L but RYA say someone was up in court in Portugal for failing to provide it and lost case and had to pay big money. Another case in pipeline.

Interested to hear from you GrahamM and that you have never heard of this form being required. We sailed our Nordwest 420 to Portugal last summer, paid our UK VAT in December 2010 when boat was newly delivered to UK from Sweden. Have all documents you describe plus VAT form 413 endorsed as paid.

Had a day out on boat couple of weeks ago. Got home and took phone call from our fiscal representative ( have apartment in Algarve and he pays our property taxes) to say tax authorities asking questions about our boat and wanting documents. No idea how they make link and fiscal rep didn't even know we had boat. Presume Policia Maritima saw us on water. Only distinctive things about boat is that it is fairly new and we fly an undefaced blue ensign as members of Royal Naval Sailing Association.

Waiting for a response from Alfandega de Faro to our submission that VAT form 413 is sufficient proof of duty paid and T2L inappropriate document for cruising yacht.

Have also been busy checking safety equipmemt in case they crawl all over us!

JudyT

 

[GrahamM376]

Had a day out on boat couple of weeks ago. Got home and took phone call from our fiscal representative ( have apartment in Algarve and he pays our property taxes) to say tax authorities asking questions about our boat and wanting documents. No idea how they make link and fiscal rep didn't even know we had boat. Presume Policia Maritima saw us on water.

Very strange situation. We had extensive dealings with Policia Maritima a while ago and our mooring is also next to theirs but, never had any paperwork problems. Unlike you, we don't own property here, our fiscal address is in Lisbon so there's no local tie up. We don't do tax returns in Portugal or have a marina berth. I can only think that maybe they're cross referencing paperwork they automatically get from marinas with residential addresses.

Hope it works out OK for you, keep us posted.

Graham.

 

[jonic]

In the brokerage world we have been hearing this too. It is the wrong form but they have been demanding it.

 

[Whitelighter]

Europe = broken banana republic = stay well clear.

The spanish have been up to this sort of **** for years. Not suprised the Portuguese are following suit. Once again it's all take take take (from us) as far as the eu is concerned and no doubt the uk government will do buttons about it.

A uk citizen is being harrased and wrongly persued and they will do nothing. Belgium and holland also off the list for heavy handed eu sabre rattling against the uk.

Where was the exit door again????

 

[jtarmey]

T2L issues in Portugal

Contrary to what you say about UK officials, the one high point during our problems with Portigal tax authorities has been how helpful and supportive have been HMRC who have agreed to provide us with retrospective T2L even though it is not the correct form. In addition they have e-mailed me information to pass onto their opposite numbers in Faro. Added to this they say they will follow up directly with the Portuguese as well as taking up VAT documentation issues in Brussels on behalf of uk yachtsmen.

We are not out of the woods yet but do not feel at all abandoned by UK agencies. If fact the support has been great!! Quite a surprise but there you go!

Jtarmey

 

[GrahamM376]

Europe = broken banana republic = stay well clear.

The spanish have been up to this sort of **** for years. Not suprised the Portuguese are following suit. Once again it's all take take take (from us) as far as the eu is concerned and no doubt the uk government will do buttons about it.

A uk citizen is being harrased and wrongly persued and they will do nothing. Belgium and holland also off the list for heavy handed eu sabre rattling against the uk.

Where was the exit door again????

Typical bleating Brit attitude, everyone is wrong and should adopt UK systems - no thanks. I like the UK less each time I go "home" for short periods.

Life over here is more relaxed with a much cheaper cost of living and public transport for those who want to use it. OK so I admit some things aren't ideal but, if you can't accept that the majority of other countries do things differently then don't go there, stay on the isolated island.

 

[25931]

Typical bleating Brit attitude, everyone is wrong and should adopt UK systems - no thanks. I like the UK less each time I go "home" for short periods.

Life over here is more relaxed with a much cheaper cost of living and public transport for those who want to use it. OK so I admit some things aren't ideal but, if you can't accept that the majority of other countries do things differently then don't go there, stay on the isolated island.

Hear. hear. When asked how often I go home my reply is "Every night"

 

[jtarmey]

T2L and VAT documentation problems in Portugal

I am very pleased to be able to confirm that Portuguese Customs have today accepted our submission that a VAT 413 form endorsed as Paid by HMRC is proof of the VAT-paid status of our boat. This is despite Portugal's original insistence that we should be carrying a T2L document onboard Christiana and should present this within 7, later amended to 30 days. To recap: a T2L is normally used as part of a set of European Community documents when freighting goods by sea but Portugal has been demanding T2Ls from some visiting yachtsmen including us.

We were helped enourmously by the HMRC Central Processing Unit in Salford who handle these T2L documents and who agreed to provide us with a retrospectivley signed T2L for presentation should we eventually need to. (We have not presened this). HMRC CPU also sent us an e-mail to pass onto the Portuguese authorities confirming that in their opinion a T2L was not an appropriate document to prove the VAT status of a yacht cruising with the EU - our VAT 413 was the correct document in these circumstances.

Thoughout this process Faro Customs were always very pleaseant but it has been a bit or a worry waiting for a final decision while at that same time hearing horror stories from the RYA of people who have previously lost their case in the Portuguese courts.

A Happy ending!

 

[GrahamM376]

Good news indeed, glad you're sorted.

We'll just have to wait to see what they dream up next to try and raise funds for the empty coffers.

 

[jrudge]

Hooray. Sense prevails. We were moored next to jtarmy in north Spain for a night so I have been following with interest.

We keep our boat in France. No trouble ever. In Spain had the police turn up twice in 2 weeks. Every document you can imagine. Must get worse the further south you get!

 

[jtarmey]

Many thanks for your intetest, GrahamM and jrudge.
Think "empty coffers" might well have a bearing in both Spain and Portugal!

 

[charliermilligan]

T2L's in Portugal

I work for a marine based freight forwarder based in UK and have seen a huge increase in demands from Portugal for T2L's to be issued for sail-in or freighted yachts and motor yachts.

The requests are from clients or dealers and usually they are needed urgently before PT Customs charge VAT.

We have been asked to issue RETROACTIVE T2L's for craft which moved as far back as 2006!.

We have brought this to the attention of UK Customs over a year ago and no feedback received.

We have yet to find out exactly what difference they make to PT Customs if issued and they do seem to relate it to Vat status - the documents are not used for this purpose so really not sure why they are doing this.

PT Customs have also tried to suggest our T2L's are not valid ( we are pre-authorised by UK Customs to do these) and we have had visits to 'authenticate' the documents issued.

If anyone is presented with same problem it would be interesting to know why the officer says he needs this - especially if you sail in !!

Charlie

 

[boattaxexpert]

Portugal T2L BOAT TAXES

I am a yachtbroker working within the industry in the Algarve for six years.

I perhaps was one of the people to bring a T2L document up a year ago when my clients were being asked to provide one.
Hints -In Portugal from January to June 6 months,boats are allowed to stay in Portugal this being-UK registered boats.
Over this period-yes they do check UK boat are asked to do the same,paying this tax.
Larger big engine cruisers recommended going to fill up on fuel with an overnight stay keeping invoice on board,over the Spanish boarder then come back for another six months 500hp plus is a lot of tax to be paid yachts eg 8hp-60hp with smaller engines cheaper to try & pay CIRCULATION TAX.
1-boat tax how it works-if your boat is registered in Portugal you get a livrette this has all details of your boat serial numbers,also name,address,proof of ownership unlike ours.
2-Fiscal number-If you have a home in Portugal you get a fiscal number which goes towards there tax system which is availble online-no good if you do not understand the lingo of course.
3-They pay tax on the KW of the engine €2.20 per kw per year,they do not send a reminder,you need to find the finances in all local towns.
4-T2L is to prove where tax was paid,even though its written at the top of an invoice?
5-Alfandanga[there customs] is there tax system they keep all invoices when a livrette is given proof vat paid.
6-The tax system is nothing like ours in the UK boating terms, so the customs tend to pick out UK registered boats to claim 23% IVA tax - hope this answers questions on this issue.
Note-no proof of VAT paid what ever age of boat you could have problems in Portugal unless the value is less than €10,000 on a bill of sale,although I think its changed already-keep you updated.

 

[adey]

http://jimbsail.info/portugal has all the info UK boaters need and it's in English

6-The tax system is nothing like ours in the UK boating terms, so the customs tend to pick out UK registered boats to claim 23% IVA tax - hope this answers questions on this issue.
Note-no proof of VAT paid what ever age of boat you could have problems in Portugal unless the value is less than €10,000 on a bill of sale,although I think its changed already-keep you updated.

I'm sure JFM would be very interested to hear of any UK VAT paid boats over six months old that have also been charged Portuguese VAT (IVA) . Do you have any examples?

 

[volvopaul]

I thought the idea of having a European union was to unite in matters across all borders and have one system, it seems the poorer so called countries that we are bailing out don't seem to stop at what there given, but invent there own tax systems to catch us out and try to collect yet more money.

They certainly don't encourage people to visit while cruising there waters, come to a that country to buy, boats, houses etc.

If they want us to understand new tax systems they should translate it to whom is concerned so they can try to abide by it or simply miss out there coastline all together..

The mat tax in the balearics for one was the first nail in the coffin, I'd have thought other countries would have learned from there mistakes before people take off the other countries to spend there hard earned.

I'm going to Majorca tomorrow to look at a few boats, one of which is interested in taking my boat as part ex here in the uk, so if the deal looks good I might be sunning myself for a while as there is a berth included for some time till early next year.

 

[GrahamM376]

There are in fact very few problems in Portugal, considering the number of foreign boats there. Policia Maritima & Navy on the Algarve have been applying Portuguese equipment regulations to visiting boats they inspect (not just UK flagged) and there is ongoing correspondence between the RYA and Lisbon, trying to rectify this problem. If anyone has FIRST HAND (not heresay) experience of this, please email carol.paddison@rya.org.uk with full details.

Do keep all paperwork for the boat, tenders and outboards. I recently tried to sell an outboard but the Portuguese authorities wouldn't register it to the prospective purchaser because, although I could prove I own it, I couldn't produce the orginal purchase invoice (year 2000) and bills of sale between previous owners!

Several people have been diverted to the nearest port to pay the 2 euro ligh dues, which is due on the first day in Portugal and lasts for 6 months. To avoid the cruising tax due after 6 months, don't pay the light dues again at the same office and have a night or two in Ayamonte at the end of June to avoid the 183 consecutive days in the calendar year.

 

[boattaxexpert]

http://jimbsail.info/portugal has all the info UK boaters need and it's in English



I'm sure JFM would be very interested to hear of any UK VAT paid boats over six months old that have also been charged Portuguese VAT (IVA) . Do you have any examples?

New boats from dealers have to be in UK or other eu countries min 3 months or have engine hours-

Before that could be taxed in that country.

Registration-bill of sale-build certificate within this date delivered by truck normally,driver will have to be presented Docs to customs.

I helped with the delivery in a certain case,I also speak Portuguse & understand on a daily basis changes-in this case they accepted for two months telling me all well-then asked for IVA to be paid in Portugal- Tax reclaimed back from the UK-boat was 7 months old from new.

A motor cruiser that was purchased 2001 from a dealer in Portugal-Originally Portuguese registered VAT paid inport duty etc.
New owners from the UK de registered then changed to UK reg.

Owner wanted to -avoid circulation tax.

The owner has been charged VAT also needs a -yes you guest it T2L-this is on-going now happend a week ago

Note-this happens often if you have an address in the UK & Portugal you have a choice-its cheaper to UK register a boat however increasing agrovation from customs sadly in some cases boaters pay to avoid problems ahead when they do not understand.


Also information given eg by Lagos I think you will find is not the same as Portimao-Faro-Albufeira-Sines-Cascais etc written in English or not.
They are seperate CAMARA[Councils]run by seperate comanders-which change on a regular basis-new rules I presume-its all word & mouth telephone calls etc....

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