Papers

[OldBawley]

In the past 12 years of Med cruising our ships papers ware confiscated on two occasions. Once in Italy, the uniformed whoeveritwas in some harbour office put our papers in a safe till next morning when we ware leaving. Must have been to demonstrate his power, something he really needed physically belonging to the fat chicken class.
The other time was in Levkas Greece where the harbour police wanted a insurance paper I could not produce, my insurance policy and payment receipts where not OK, “They” needed this specific form so they could recognise it. Took three days to have it faxed over in the pre internet century.
Ok so far, still I was very upset, those ice cream sellers pinched my papers. Since then I refuse to give any “official” the originals. Had lots of trouble, they all want “Original” .No idea why, maybe to prevent falsified documents, more likely to demonstrate there power. One nitwit in Cesme said to me “ thisse paper blue, thisse paper blue”, so I went in town, had a blue photocopy made and then it was OK.
Now the question ; are there any cunning ways Not to give the original papers.
Btw On the last page of my passport is written only to give the passport if there is a statutory obligation to do so. I do not mind to show my passport but them keeping it makes me angry.

 

[ukmctc]

In the past 12 years of Med cruising our ships papers ware confiscated on two occasions. Once in Italy, the uniformed whoeveritwas in some harbour office put our papers in a safe till next morning when we ware leaving. Must have been to demonstrate his power, something he really needed physically belonging to the fat chicken class.
The other time was in Levkas Greece where the harbour police wanted a insurance paper I could not produce, my insurance policy and payment receipts where not OK, “They” needed this specific form so they could recognise it. Took three days to have it faxed over in the pre internet century.
Ok so far, still I was very upset, those ice cream sellers pinched my papers. Since then I refuse to give any “official” the originals. Had lots of trouble, they all want “Original” .No idea why, maybe to prevent falsified documents, more likely to demonstrate there power. One nitwit in Cesme said to me “ thisse paper blue, thisse paper blue”, so I went in town, had a blue photocopy made and then it was OK.
Now the question ; are there any cunning ways Not to give the original papers.
Btw On the last page of my passport is written only to give the passport if there is a statutory obligation to do so. I do not mind to show my passport but them keeping it makes me angry.

Depends on your country of origin, where are you from?

 

[concentrik]

I was going to ask the same thing. I worked in the middle east a lot and at that time you'd never relinquish your passport voluntarily. Colour photocopies are so good now you'd be forgiven for 'accidentally' mixing your copies with your original - and who'd be able to tell?

 

[sarabande]

it's an oft-mooted suggestion, and a good one too, to have a "Ship's stamp" made, so as to look official and impressive. Then you can rubber stamp quality copies to your heart's content.


Especially if you sign illegibly across it in green ink !


The sophisticated operator will also have a rubber stamp "ORIGINAL" as well....

 

[capnsensible]

it's an oft-mooted suggestion, and a good one too, to have a "Ship's stamp" made, so as to look official and impressive. Then you can rubber stamp quality copies to your heart's content.


Especially if you sign illegibly across it in green ink !


The sophisticated operator will also have a rubber stamp "ORIGINAL" as well....

Waste of money. Every country your clear in or out of has their own forms, often different at each point of entry. They are absolutely not interested in anything else....in the 40 odd countries Ive cleared at, often multiple times!!

If you cant bear to let your passport out of your sight, avoid Morocco cos you will be very disappointed.

CS

 

[OldBawley]

The boat is Belgian flag. Cos it is build there, I bought it there and it is the oldest Belgian sailing yacht ( Sail nr B4 ) I have a Belgian neighbour country passport.
All ships papers are 66 years old, except for the “Vlaggebrief” which has to be renewed each 5 years. So that one is brand new. That is the “ Blue “ paper.
Having old papers is problematic. For instance, asking for a new “Vlaggebrief” which is the official document proof of ownership, each five years I am sentenced to death by the Belgian tax computer.
Fines of thousands of Euro´s, doubling each month. Probably in each European police computer.
I have proof having paid TVA, unfortunately not digitized. Have official papers, tax stamps, all 1987.
Pre government computers.
You can imagine me not been keen on presenting my papers to a bad mood uniform knowing there is an APB out for me.
Last time, dozens of E mails, an approved copy of the TVA form and an physical visit of my son to the functionary in charge gave me a letter of regularisation. Damn computers.
Most of the time I produce a booklet called “Meetbrief “ It was compulsory during last century for Belgian boats. Has lots of stamps, calligraphy names and formulas. All white uniforms regard it with respect. It could just as well contain the story of Tom Thumb, they can’t read Flemish or French anyway.

 

[ukmctc]

The boat is Belgian flag. Cos it is build there, I bought it there and it is the oldest Belgian sailing yacht ( Sail nr B4 ) I have a Belgian neighbour country passport.
All ships papers are 66 years old, except for the “Vlaggebrief” which has to be renewed each 5 years. So that one is brand new. That is the “ Blue “ paper.
Having old papers is problematic. For instance, asking for a new “Vlaggebrief” which is the official document proof of ownership, each five years I am sentenced to death by the Belgian tax computer.
Fines of thousands of Euro´s, doubling each month. Probably in each European police computer.
I have proof having paid TVA, unfortunately not digitized. Have official papers, tax stamps, all 1987.
Pre government computers.
You can imagine me not been keen on presenting my papers to a bad mood uniform knowing there is an APB out for me.
Last time, dozens of E mails, an approved copy of the TVA form and an physical visit of my son to the functionary in charge gave me a letter of regularisation. Damn computers.
Most of the time I produce a booklet called “Meetbrief “ It was compulsory during last century for Belgian boats. Has lots of stamps, calligraphy names and formulas. All white uniforms regard it with respect. It could just as well contain the story of Tom Thumb, they can’t read Flemish or French anyway.

well hopefully someone from your own country will assist you here, different regs for UK overseas than yourself.
I have known loads of skippers who have never handed over any documents other than passports and always had them returned stamped there and then.
I guess it depends on your approach and demeanour towards the said official.

 

[OldBawley]

I realise very well that my antipathy for any patronising authority is problematic.
Mad dogs and police, there you have it.
I served two years as navy military police. Had nothing to do with law, everything with beating he **** out of those paratroopers. Maybe that is where I learned what police mentality is all about.
Afraid there are no Belgian forumites, 40 miles of sea.

 

[daveyw]

When I was in the Merchant navy it was possible to have 2 uk passports if for instance you regularly sailed between Israel and arab states.

 

[macd]

When I was in the Merchant navy it was possible to have 2 uk passports

It's possible for anyone if the need for it is work-related. All you need is a letter confirming the need, and reasons, from your employer (not too onerous when I was self-employed )

 

[jimbaerselman]

Having old papers is problematic. For instance, asking for a new “Vlaggebrief” which is the official document proof of ownership, each five years I am sentenced to death by the Belgian tax computer.

Best answer is to keep a copy of all your papers, and hand over the copy for routine requests. When they ask to see the original, have it ready to show them. That was my policy from Scotland to Israel over 8 years, and it kept the originals safely on board.

The usual reason for asking to take papers away is transcribe the contents into some vast ledger in slow time . . . or to create a local permit to cruise.

The suggestion "to have a boat stamp" is an oft repeated myth. I'm afraid very few officials are dumb enough to be impressed.

 

[Roaring Girl]

Hi - I've only ever handed over my passport in Bulgaria in 1975.

The ships documents are regularly kept by marinas, which I don't like but see little choice. It's never been a problem except once when an unpleasant port policeman engaged in cleaning the anchoring riffraff out of Porto Cervo in June 2010 tried to take our ship's papers. I refused, in a prolonged and noisy discussion. We left.

We heard later that another boat (40') had gone in to the marina there, and on hearing the price tried to leave. They already had his papers and wouldn't let him have them back till he paid for one night. At over EU10 per foot! While it probably wasn't the cleverest move on his part, that's just extortion.

 

[OldBawley]

Think I go with JimB.
Present copy´s ( Blue ones ) of all papers, and if someone insists on seeing the original, showing it but not giving out of my hands. If they insist on keeping the originals, I will leave.
I have a short example why I am so obsessed with papers.
My passport is valid for 5 year. It was expiring, so I ordered a new one at the ***consulate in Marmaris Turkey. Now I had two passports. One deleted, big holes punched in but with my entry stamps in it and a new one.
Had to do a visa run. Turkish Kaç to Kastellorizon Greece and back. On the small gullet that did the trip the Turk passport police collected the passports to stamp out.
Me been obsessed with Papermania shouted in front of many English witnesses ” Two passports, two passports”. The officer answered “ Yes” witch means nothing, they always say yes because they have no idea what you are saying.
Midway, the “captan” had to change courtesy flags and I had a quick look in the transitlog.
Nr one, we, yachtys had to pay an agent to “Computer” our transitlog, and this one was hand written. So, some foul play.
Nr two, my name was nowhere on that transitlog. I went into stage three of getting bezurk. The captan just grinned and said okeee, okeee.
Now, I know that the main profit of these visa runs is bringing in alcohol. The crew of the gullets go get the in advance ordered bottles of whatever and divide them in shopping bags to a number fitting the passengers. That is also the main reason the passport police counts more than once who is leaving and who is coming back. They count there share.
In the few hours we had in Kastellorizon all other passengers went eating and had a glass, I was running around, biting my nails, and imagining myself going to a Turkish prison or worst, not been allowed in and the boat all by itself on the anchorage. Started talking to myself, and after two hours when allowed back on board I was tree years older. By now, all English visa clients avoided me.
Logic. Someone with a Von...... name, not drinking and two passports. Tsss tssss. Weird.
Back in Turkey it took very long before our passports ware returned. The English started drinking serious now, I developed a flattering eye and half size Parkinson out of nerves.
The guy who brought my two passports ( Entry stamps in the new one ) thanked me more than normal. ( Two bags of liqueur ) It always happens to me.

 

[CharlesSwallow]

Since I have four SSR Certs, it isn't too much of a problem if one gets nicked. Yes, of course get copies of your multi-lingual Insurance declaration made. your insurance co will usually oblige anyway.

Chas

 

[macd]

One of the advantages of Part 1 registration (there aren't so many) is that many officials are not familiar with them and happy to accept a laminated colour photocopy as the 'original'. Naturally their happiness is also mine

Pedantic thought: the 'original' of pretty much any form these days is a bunch of zeroes and ones on a computer somewhere. Neither my insurance nor ICC have a real signature (although my registration has someone's illegible scrawl). Just what constitutes an 'original'?

 

[jimbaerselman]

Pedantic thought: the 'original' of pretty much any form these days is a bunch of zeroes and ones on a computer somewhere. Neither my insurance nor ICC have a real signature (although my registration has someone's illegible scrawl). Just what constitutes an 'original'?

A very apt thought. A certificate merely gives details of how to contact the original registry. "Originals" hark back to the days when 'phones were unreliable, and international calls expensive, so to minimise the time needed to check authenticity, documents had to stand on their own merits. Like currency notes. Easy to forge.

Slowly, registries are going on line. Think of passport swipes. Car number plate enquiries.

It'll come to boat papers eventually. But first, port authority staff will have to join the internet age . . . now, when did you last see a Greek port policeman with a computer at his desk? His reference system is simpler:

 

[billcowan]

Agree about probedroids not being familiar with part 1 laminated thing.

But mine was soo big, A4 wouldn't fit in my sporran, so I scanned, printed and laminated as A5 - then folded it in half.

But I have to say there has never been much interest in my 'papers'
Marinas usually quickly photocopy (within sight) and return.
Italian port officials take 45 minutes to find key to photocopier first.
Greek Port police said it was past 4:30 and i should come back "tomorrow" -
which never came during my 2 years in Greece.

Never been asked for 'papers' in any UK small harbour.