Pan Pan "An alternative view"

[Mezzanine]

Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

“Let he without sin cast the first stone” seems we have forgotten ourselves, It would seem that from the replies I have read that we truly are a nation of great sailors capable of mooring in a tight marina with a large motor sailor under sail.

Yes it would seem from the responses that everyone should be capable of such a feat
Well I hate to be a realist in such obviously eminent company but I for one don’t think that I could do it under sail in 15knots of wind. I have been sailing for 31 years
(Not continuously) and although a Pan Pan to the CG may have been a misuse of facilities I think it may have been a prudent decision by the skipper who obviously knew his abilities and as such decided that this was the best option.

I may add that there have been many skippers whose decisions have not ended so successfully. Maybe we should look back at some of the decisions that we have made, How many of these have only been successful through the intervention of luck. Just something to ponder on…


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[Sybarite]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

Yes I was critical and I remain so. (1) If he was not confident about sailing onto his mooring then he shouldn't find himself without fuel. (2) What was to stop him sailing close to where he wanted to end up, anchoring and going to get a spare jerrican of diesel in his dinghy?

John

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[Robin]

Re: Pan Pan "An alternative view"

Exactly, or tying the inflatable alongside with outboard when just outside the harbour. This is the 'let's call out the AA' syndrome. We heard one side of another conversation yesterday to Solent CG with a broken down RIB in Pagham harbour (anchored) wanting a tow back to Littlehampton, he'd apparently been offered a tow inside Pagham but that wasn't good enough. HMCG was very patient I thought and did ask on CH16 if there was anyone who could assist with towing a 6.8m RIB but we didn't hear any takers. Round our way not so long back that would be a nice little earner for a local fishing boat, tax free too! At least I do't think the lifeboat was called. Why don't these things carry a small outboard in reserve?

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[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[Mirelle]

It is a bit hard on the RNLI

As we all know, the RNLI are very worried about their future funding.

We also know that the MCA have to "play it safe" when dealing with panicky messages from us lot.

At the same time, no Lifeboat Secretary is going to refuse a call out from the MCA in any but the most utterly extreme weather (and maybe not even then, as many heroic tales attest).

Now, the public don't mind putting money in the Lifeboat if they think it will be spent saving shipwrecked souls from the Deep, but they are not interested in providing "rich" yacht owners with a free AA service (actually rather better than the AA or the RAC - you get an entire Lifeboat, with a full crew, costing a small fortune in diesel) in fine summer weather.

The result of this sort of nonsense is that maybe the RNLI don't get a donation that they otherwise might have done.

However, in fairness to the yacht that made the Pan Pan call, they may not have realised that a Pan Pan call will usually result in a Lifeboat launch. They may just have been hoping that someone would sell them some diesel.

And we don't know the situation on board - could have been panicking passengers.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 07/07/2003 22:41 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Mezzanine]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

Yes in our easy world sitting in a comfortable chair typing replies to forum messages. it would be easy to jump in the dinghy. But not if he had no dinghy. Yes the ideal would have been to put a call out for some help to passing Yachtsmen maybe he tried this, we don’t know the facts are we weren’t their. And if he received the same response as the gentleman in the RIB you quote then why bother…

Again we ponder with the advantage of hindsight a situation in which we cannot judge his actions.

And before you play the (“the lifeboat could have had a real emergency to go to”) card, just think in that case it may have saved time in launching and gathering the crew together. Instead of the negative look at the positive.

Going to sea without enough diesel or spare diesel is a mistake, let me rephrase the first sentience in my previous message Let he that has never made a mistake cast the first aspersion.


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[jimi]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

No way is it a Pan Pan -Very urgent message with regard to safety of vessel or person. As others have said should be able to sail to a more sheltered location and either anchor,pick up a mooring or just sail around whilst arranging fuel in a less dramatic fashion. Happened to me once when fuel gauge misread. Sailed into Weymouth and rafted up under sail. Also lost engine once and again sailed onto a pontoon on the Medina.. dark wet witers night as well. At no time did I even consider contacting the CG. Part of the passage plan should be to have contingency plans for such events.

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[LadyInBed]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

I agree.
Admittedly only a 22 footer, but I ran out of fuel through misreading the sight gauge just North of Alderney heading back from St PP to Portland. I thought OK, the wind was picking up to F3, so we can sail it. It will take us a bit longer, but no problem. Anyway, about 12 miles South of the Bill, the tide changed and the wind died and we (Wife and 2 girls) drifted East for a tide then West for another couple of hours till the dawn then the wind picked up. We spent about an hour and a half trying to tack through Portland harbour entrance against the tide and picked up our mooring around lunchtime.
At that time, I wasn’t too experienced. I didn’t carry a spare fuel can, and I didn’t think of using the inflatable and outboard to get through the harbour entrance! But never did I consider us to be in danger, cold – yes, and the wife said we should call out the Life Boat for assistance, maybe I should have, but as I said, we were not in any danger.


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[Sybarite]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

Sorry still can't agree. A dinghy for me is an essential part of a boat's equipment precisely because circumstances may oblige you to anchor.

John

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[Robin]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

We had a total engine failure years and years ago on a Liz 30, in Cherbourg. We sailed her from the old Cherbourg marina to our mooring in Poole, then went ashore and arranged a short tow through the lifting bridge for repairs. Engines are supposed to be 'auxiliary' on sailing boats, the unreliable ones I had on early boats were often called something else.

On our last boat, heavy Westerly 33 ketch, the oil pump drive sheared on the normally reliable Mercedes engine and it seized just outside of Poole entrance, virtually no wind. We drifted/sailed as best we could until another yacht came close enough to ask for a tow to our mooring, later our club launch towed us through the lifting bridge to the yard where eventually a new engine was installed.

On a cold January delivery trip from Brighton to Poole on a friends new boat, we encountered thick fog, no wind and the Decca had packed up soon after departure. We picked up a pot line (they were a hazard then too) off the Owers Lanby which we could hear but not see, the flexible drive coupling sheared and the shaft fell back jamming the rudder (bit of luck that or we could have had a big hole underneath!). We pulled the shaft up inside and lashed it and started sailing - but back to Brighton since the tide had now turned and we could only make 2 or 3 kts in the light breeze that fortunately came up. We had managed to get the Decca restarted but were not absolutely sure it had not jumped lanes (they could do that) and were using DR (remember that?) and RDF, it was still thick fog. I had a transportable phone on board and tried to call SWMBO to say meet us back in Brighton not Poole, but the battery went dead just as she answered. So now a link call via Niton radio, but the line is permanently busy, SWMBO is calling other SWMBOs to say there may be a problem or why would I have called. We decide to call Solent CG to inform him we are sans moteur and going back to Brighton but do not need any assistance, we can call Brighton Marina when we get there for help through the entrance if required. HMCG informs us that SWMBO has just called by landline asking if he had received a call from us, he calls her and says to met us in Brighton. We call Brighton Marina and give an approximate ETA and ask if they can have a launch help us into a berth, they agree and ask us to call when 30 mins away. The wind has now risen to about F4 but it is still thick fog, we hear a disco on Brighton pier but no RDF from Brighton entrance (out of order). We drop the main and sail with genoa only and call for the launch, but because of the swell they ask us to sail into the entrance before they come alongside, this we do but with a little difficulty as the tide is running east across the entrance and we have to come hard on the wind. Just as we get there and are passing lines to the launch, the inshore lifeboat arrives, flat out, big wash as he drops off the plane and we crunch into the launch, fortunately no damage, and 10 minutes later we are back in the same berth we left 16hrs earlier. We hadn't requested the lifeboat, they were around and had heard we needed a tow and decided to try and meet us outside, hence their rush. No PAN PAN, just an informative call to Solent, a request to Brighton Marina and a little bit of self help.



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[Peppermint]

Re: Justified response?

It is true that sailing into harbours and onto moorings is a bit testing for some skippers and boat types. Harbours are tighter than ever and Authorities don't always encourage anchoring or entering under sail.

I think we are saying that Pan Pan was the wrong call, both according to the regs. and from a common sense viewpoint. It's a common occurance to hear a request for assistance because a vessel has run out of fuel. If you want your cry for help to blend in, and spare your blushes, your better off just calling the CG without adding a prefix thats sure to make everyone listen in.

Of course if you are handed a can of diesel by a passing yacht your troubles are just begining. You've got to get into all that smelly bleeding and such and you've like as not got dirt in the injectors etc.etc.

If self reliance is beyond a crew then alternative strategies can limit the blush factor. Getting near to your destination and asking for help from other yachts or the HM often gets results and you meet such nice people that way.

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: Pan Pan "An alternative view"

I too doubt my ability to sail into a marina berth (I did once see both Morning Cloud and Yeoman sail into Port Hamble marina under spinnaker. Amazing). However, I have once sailed a boat onto the fuel pontoon at Warsash - fuel pontoons are usually outboard of any marina proper, and an approach is fairly straightforward, at least in benign conditions.

But I do contend that anybody who has any slight degree of sailing skill should be able to sail themselves to anchor or onto a mooring buoy. And once there they should be able to resolve the situation either by going ashore themselves or requesting delivery of a can of fuel via a local launch. First point of contact would be the harbourmaster if they were somewhere where they didn't know what was what with the local services.

Granted there may have been exceptional or unknown circumstances with this particular situation, but on the face of it this was a blatant abuse of the Pan Pan procedure.

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[Evadne]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

I tried sailing into a marina berth on the Hamble once, (plenty of fuel but no oil) and I don't know which was more scary, tacking up the Hamble on a Sunday morning or being fended off from the sailing school boat in front by several assorted seaboots. We didn't break anything that wasn't ours, fortunately.

I think that the positive side of this incident is that if a lot more people now realise that a pan-pan call always results in a lifeboat call-out, there will be fewer trivial ones, which has got to be a good thing.

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[Jacket]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

Surely the easiest option is to sail up and down outside your destination till a yacht comes past, and ask for a tow in? I've done this for a couple of boats, and been towed in myself when my engine refused to start. It only takes a few minutes to rig up a tow line in normal sea conditions, and most people seem happy to help.

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[Peppermint]

Re: The first time

I did sail alongside was at Mylor with the sailing club watching and a fair crowd.

I'd used everything even slightly squashy, saloon cushions in sailbags included, to lessen the impact and as it was it went well.

Since then I've arrived and departed undersail a few times to a generaly negative response from my neighbours, but with no real damage.

I've watched how the French go about sailing in marinas, in Cherbourg it is the norm for the racing fleets to work their way out to sea without engines. Sure there's a bit of physical fending off but it all seems quite good natured without the surly comments and protectionism you get in the UK..

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[ashanta]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

I agree with Jacket. The vessel could easily have reached Brixham/Berry Head and and received the attention of one of the many boats coming and going.
As I said in my previous message, I had just come from Fowey to Brixham and the conditions were excellent for sailing. 15 Knots of wind is ideal. I sail my 31 ft yachtsingle handed as I did on this day. Conditions were not great at Start point but I had wind against tide. From where this yacht was coming from the sea state would have been slight. If Mezzanine couln't handle those conditions after 30 years sailing then I am suprised as conditions in Lyme bay are very often much worse!

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[bedouin]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

Although I agree with the sentiment, I think you underestimate the difficulty of picking up certain mooring buoys. Where I moor getting onto the buoy is as least as tricky as getting into a Marina berth, and in certain conditions much harder. While I have on occasion sailed onto and off the buoy, I've always had the engine running and would regard it as irresponsible not to.

That of course is a very sad thing to say - the problem is that these days it is assumed you will use your engine to enter the marina, or pick up the buoy, and so they are set up appropriately.

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[Evadne]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

I agree that picking up the mooring under sail is often tricky. Mind you, the only times I've been successful was when the engine had died in reality. Sailing in with it on tick-over as a practice invariably ends in picking it up under power alone.

The point of the original post seemed to be that a tow from outside the harbour will nary raise a murmur whereas having the lifeboat accompany/tow you for more than, say, 20 miles is a newsworthy item. The seamanlike thing is to get as far as you can towards safety without assistance then ask for it if still required. It also used to be that letting the CG know you might need assistance at a later time was also desirable, but if they now insist on calling the lifeboat out the minute you call up, then assess your situation before you call them. If the CG think this is not a good practice then perhaps they should let us know....

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Dave_White on 08/07/2003 14:57 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ashanta]

Re: Pan Pan \"An alternative view\"

I still believe the point is being lost here? The issue is not about sailing in to a mooring or into a marina. The point is that a sailing craft is calling the CG because they have run out of fuel 7 miles away from Brixham.
I do understand the difficulty of sailing onto a mooring as it si something I practice regularly and would also say that in my earlier years sailing in the Baltic the yachts (Dan Boats) had no engines so we had to make do.
Once arriving at Berry Head/ Brixham, there would have been plenty of opportunity to receive assistance to a mooring. It happens most weekends.

Regards.

Peter.

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[Sybarite]

Re: Pan Pan "An alternative view"

Where it is difficult to pick up a buoy you can prepare a large bight, weighted and throw it right over the buoy, haul it until you can get a line fixed properly.

John

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