Paloma gas heater

[Jabberwock]

I recently bought a Moody Eclipse with a Paloma PH-5KE Mk 4 gas water heater fitted in the heads. Safe operation is obviously dependent on opening the heads hatch while using it.
The boat needed conversion from camping gas to Calor gas and when I asked for advice I was told that having the gas heater on the boat was unsafe and it should be disconnected at once. So I did the conversion myself without difficulty.
Sometime later the previous owner visited the boat and showed me how to use the heater. It then became evident that the flame was not reliably shutting off when demand for water ceased i.e. it needs servicing.
So I have two questions - firstly does anybody know if parts are still available and secondly will it be posssible to get anybody (in the Falmouth area) to service it in situ or are all gas fitters likely to condemn it outright. It is of couse possible although difficult to remove it for servicing - due to the water connections rather than the gas cnnection as this has an isolation tap adjacent.

 

[alanwilson]

As I understand it, having investigated similar issues with my new (old) boat with an existing water heater, firstly any work on the gas installation does not have to be carried out by a Corgi registered fitter: it does, however, have to be carried out to Corgi standard, for insurance purposes. Second, you cannot have a water heater fitted unless it vents overboard; but an existing heater already in place does not contravene regulations (but your insurance company may have problems with it). Third, you are unlikely to get any Corgi registered fitter to work on it, even though it is theoretically OK since it existing prior to the newish regulations: to cover themselves, they will simply disconnect it. So your only option to get it serviced is to disconnect it and take it somewhere: cheaper than getting an engineer out to the boat, though.
I'm planning simply a hole in the side of the wheelhouse above the top of the water heater, with a slatted guard to stop the rain getting in and a 12v PC fan from RS or Maplin, connected to the water pump or a thermistor: either when the water pump turns on or when the temperature above the heater rises, the fan comes on. Sounds easy...

 

[Superstrath]

The problem I encountered when trying to get a new 240v heater element fitted to my Electrolux gas/mains Fridge, was that the fitters would not countenance working on ANY gas installation on ANY boat. I said I would take it to them, but then they would not work on it because they would then not be able to check the gas installation. Catch 22! They wouldn't even sell me the element.
In the end I bought the element in a camping shop and fitted it myself.
More specifically to the Paloma, I had one of these in an old caravan. I remember that it did not shut down immediately, which I assumed was because it was still heating the water in the coil. I assumed it shut off once the water reached a certain temperaure, but I might be wrong. It always had nice blue flames, which I interpreted as being healthy. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want one of them on a boat at all, espacially if it does not have a dedicated flue and chimbley.

Alistair

 

[Talbot]

Had the same problem with my old paloma - The gasket is defective and is now unobtainable. I purchased a rinnai heater to replace it, and it is smaller, but has a better heat output, and you can use it with a shower. I used the same gas run, flue diffuser and water pipes, so the biggest problem was new bulkhead connection!

Conversion of a calor gas system to run on camping gas is really difficult - you go into a camping shop and buy a connector that fits to the top os a camping gas cylinder, and this provides a tap. It also provides a connector for a standard calor gas regulator, so you can use both calor and camping gas for abt £7 IIRC.

 

[LittleShip]

"As I understand it, having investigated similar issues with my new (old) boat with an existing water heater, firstly any work on the gas installation does not have to be carried out by a Corgi registered fitter"

Alan you understand this incorrectly, this has been discussed several times on the board and a search of the forum may help you out. Altering the way an appliance works may also contravene the safety regs. In short be very careful of what you do to the appliance??
Tom

PS. there are a couple of gas installers and plumbers on the forum who will probably put you right.

 

[cliff]

"As I understand it, having investigated similar issues with my new (old) boat with an existing water heater, firstly any work on the gas installation does not have to be carried out by a Corgi registered fitter"

Alan you understand this correctly.

There is no LAW that I am aware of (yet) that says you MUST use a corgi registered installer. The problem arises with insurance etc.

From the CORGI WEB SITE - "People who do not work directly on gas installations or appliances, but who work in areas where there are implications for gas safety - such as architects, builders and local authorities working with flues and venting - have a general duty of care under civil law. They should refer to the appropriate regulations covering their work.
<font color="red">The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998</font> place specific duties on gas users, installers, suppliers and landlords. For example:
· Anyone carrying out work on gas appliances or fittings <font color="red">as part of their business</font> must be competent and registered with CORGI.
· Only a competent person can carry out work on gas appliances or fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas appliances or fittings could be dangerous and is likely to be illegal. <font color="blue">(note the use of the word "likely" i.e it is not automatically illegal)</font>
· Do not use any gas appliance or fittings you know or suspect to be unsafe. Through CORGI, the Health & Safety Executive has asked all registered installers to disconnect any gas appliance or fittings that are so dangerous as to be a threat to life if they are used. <font color="blue">(note the use of the word "asked" i.e. it is NOT a mandatory requirement for CORGI registered fitters to disconnect suspect appliances)</font> · Landlords are responsible for making sure that gas fittings and flues are maintained in good order, and gas appliances that they own in their residential premises, and flues, are checked for safety every 12 months. They must also keep a record of the safety checks for at least two years and issue it to existing tenants and any new tenants before they move in.
· Tenants are responsible for the maintenance and safety of appliances they own.
The regulations place a number of restrictions on gas appliances installed in bathrooms, shower rooms and bedrooms which are detailed and prescriptive.
It is illegal to install instantaneous water heaters, which are not room sealed or fitted with a safety device that automatically turns the gas supply off before a dangerous level of poisonous fumes builds up. Ref: CORGI WEB SITE

The real crunch comes from the Calor Marine website

“<font color="red">The installation of a gas system on the private vessel is not covered by the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998.</font> However, you have to take "responsible care" for the health and safety of yourself and other persons who may be affected by your acts or omissions at work under the Heath and Safety at Work Act 1974.
<font color="red">This means that you do not have to have the professional qualifications of a CORGI engineer</font> but you do need to do the job in a "workman like manner", so you will need to read a copy of BS5482 pt3 and the references listed within.” – ref: Calor Marine

So it seems that contrary to popular belief and misconception one does NOT NEED to use a CORGI fitter to carry out gas related work on ones own private boat, and that is the "law" as it stands.

Sits back and waits for the "the law says...." from those that disagree with CORGI and Calor Marine who I would take as the erudite authorities on the subject. So far as I can make out it is purely a recommendation thet one pays through the nose for some "job's worth" to work on your gas installation on your private boat. NB. Different regulations do apply to commercial vessels though.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[Talbot]

It is always wise to check regulations yourself because some people believe that they know the correct info, but its changed, or they misunderstood.

The following information was taken from the official Calor Gas Marine Installation site http://www.calormarineshop.co.uk/installation/you_the_gas_installer.htm
<font color="blue"> "Do it yourself" installation is not encouraged. The installation of a gas system on the private vessel is not covered by the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998. However, you have to take "responsible care for the health and safety of yourself and other persons who may be affected by your acts or omissions at work" under the Heath and Safety at Work Act 1974.

If you require professional training for LPG marine installations contact Paul Carter Training for details.

This means that you do not have to have the professional qualifications of a C.O.R.G.I. engineer, but you do need to do the job in a "workman like manner", so you will need to have read a copy of EN ISO 10239 and BS5482 pt3 as well as the references listed within. If you wish to do the installation yourself, then get it checked by a C.O.R.G.I. registered and "Competent" engineer who can issue a gas safety certificate (not compulsory - Talbot). Your insurance company may insist upon it .

If your vessel is:
1. "hired out in the course of a business"
2. "made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel" OR
3. "used primarily for domestic or residential purposes"
then you have a legal requirement under the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998 to use a C.O.R.G.I. engineer.
</font>

 

[cliff]

Glad someone agrees with me! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
I expected the next post to be a flaming for missing something.

Interesting reading about the instant heaters though, seems they should be sealed from the heads (assuming it is used to heat water for a shower) so one would really want to have an inlet for combustion air and an exhaust rather than drawing the combustion air from inside the boat.... mmmmmm. Don't think that needs a corgi fitter to install one of those or is the hole he cuts in your deck to allow the duct through different from the one you cut? Maybe because he is "CORGI" the hole works differently? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[LittleShip]

Only a competent person can carry out work on gas appliances or fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas appliances or fittings could be dangerous and is likely to be illegal.

Note the word "ONLY"

DIY can be great fun and a great way to save money. But never DIY with gas. You could be breaking the law, you could be endangering lives and [red]you could have enforcement action taken out against you.[/red]

Note the word "COULD"

It is unlikely that you would be prosecuted but ……………………
Most people are not competent to work on gas installations without training and very few would have the first idea of how to go about testing the installation. So lets not encourage people to do something potentially dangerous to themselves or others.

 

[cliff]

What part of “<font color="red">The installation of a gas system on the private vessel is not covered by the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998.</font>" are you having trouble understanding? and what gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to question another's competency to work on his own gas installation?.

Not everyone on these forums is a handless oaf. There are many very experienced engineers and others who are quite capable of major DIY work probably to a higher standard than the so called professionals.

In answer to the original question IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO WORK ON YOUR OWN GAS INSTALLATION ON YOUR PRIVATE BOAT.

Whether it is wise to do so or not is another question and up to the boat owner. If he has the skills then go ahead, if he is doubtful then it may be better to have someone else do the work but it is certainly not illegal for him to go ahead anyway

Raises a question - how many UK based private boats have blown up due to a faulty gas installation?
How many people have been gassed on their own UK based private boat due to a faulty gas installation? I don't remember hearing of even one case of either.

Same as the drink driving laws - DD of private boats has not been a problem according to the RYA but TB liar and co have to pass laws against it!

BTY, Competent does not mean CORGI, It merely means competent and many people are competent although the HSE brigade would have us believe no one is unless they are CORGI registered - The biggest piece of bull excrement I have heard.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[jerryat]

Hi Cliff!

Totally agree. You express my views exactly. I am often amazed at the apparent difficulties some have dealing with what TO ME is a perfectly simple, logical situation/operation. To balance this of course, those same people may well have skills in other areas that are way beyond my comprehension. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Like you though, the assumption that another ordinary human being, with brains, eyes, hands, skills and confidence is not competent to carry out straightforward tasks really annoys me. After all, most of the 'experts' have no other claim, than that they may have done the job more often. That, in itself, does not make their work good or accurate. Just look at the number of posts on these forums expressing disgust at this or that bit of failed work, done by the 'professionals'! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I have, coincidentally, just completely replaced the gas installation in my own boat, tested it with a pressure gauge, and told a CORGI registered friend of mine the results. He was amazed, and confirmed that they exceeded the pressure-drop/time requirements by many times! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sort of micro-rant over!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Cheers Jerry





Cheers Jerry

 

[cliff]

Hi young man,

Glad to know there are some out there that agree with me. Personally I get really p1$$ed off at the assumptions of some that no one can do anything! Not only that but they don't even understand what is "law" and what is a "guideline" or a "standard" or a "recommended code of practice". Guidelines, standards and codes of practice are not "laws".

These type of people probably put competent folk off doing work they are quite capable of doing leaving them with possibly an inferior, "professional" job that has cost a lot of money for no good reason.
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“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[Talbot]

Having personnally totally re-placed all the pipework throughout my boat, and similarly have a much better bubble test than standard, I have been watching the control freak attitudes of TB and his cronies anxiously. I have seen corgi inspired aspirations to include boats within the legislation thus mandating a corgi fitter. I have also been the victim of a so called corgi registered rip-off merchant who knew less about the system than I did. There are very few plumbers who would be prepared to work on boats so any legislation mandating a corgi fitter would have devastating consequences for us.

Meanwhile those people who state the regulations from a position of ignorance, and get the facts wrong are doing all of us a dis-service.

 

[VicMallows]

You and Cliff are totally correct. These 'safety initiatives' all stem from 'trade associations' trying to protect their own interests. Just look at the new Part P electrical regs...........even as a C.Eng MIEE I am no longer allowed to install a socket in my own kitchen, etc, unless I shell out £000s to 'register' or equally pay £000s to have a building regs chap inspect it. Worse thing still is that IEE never even canvassed opinion from its members as far as I'm aware. IMHO the RYA looks after its members interests better.

Off to study the gas regs again in detail ..... If your quote is correct Cliff, and if I am 'competent' I can in fact still work on *my own* domestic gas installation. Have not blown-up since I quite legally installed the oven and hob 25yrs ago. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Agree, there is no doubt whatsover that I can legally do any gas work on the boat. (Insurance different question).

Vic

 

[Peter19002000]

Corgi gas fitters are not the right persons to work on boats , Corgi fitters are trained and qualified to work on domestic gas systems.
eg A Corgi fitter will see that nothing is wrong with using soldered gas fittings, however on a boat that has to past the British Waterways Boat Safety Scheme to be used on inland waterways then this is a fail !!! I have had to re-gas/re-pipe a number of boats with new compression fittings so as to pass the safety cert.
Oh and one other thing heaters shouldnt be but in showers or by cookers as the steam can cause incomplete combustion.