P.C. Based Chart plotters

[BrendanChandler]

<font color="blue">As an old fashiones navigator with pencil and paper charts, I am looking to buy software and charts for use on a P.C.

I want a raster system if I can afford it.

I would be grateful for any information on systems, charts to use, suppliers and costs please.

Thanks

Brendan</font>

 

[Oldhand]

Go for MaxSea. All decent chartplotting software is expensive but MaxSea can use the greatest range of chart types. For raster charts it can use Maptech (poor man's British Admiralty charts for over here), Mapmedia (French SHOM charts) and Admiralty ARCS charts. If, as many people on these forums will try to do, you get persauded to go for vector charts (don't do it!) then Maxsea can use C-Map NT+.

Expect to pay around £400 for the software and £100-£250 for chart packs depending on type.

Make sure you have a RS232 serial port on your PC for NMEA data transfer. I find a USB/NMEA converter works for data IN but only a proper COM post works for data OUT, such as transfering waypoints and routes to other equipment.

 

[robind]

Check out www.fugawi.com Yes that is the name they are Canadian and I have used them for years
Regards
Rob

 

[Skents]

All I can say is that my laptop is always getting stroppy in a liveaboard context. It's more temperamental than a teenager. However, my lovely Raymarine plotter took a nasty whack due to careless stowage on a day sail when it wasn't in its bracket and it is working just fine. Or am I just being a technophobe?

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Or am I just being a technophobe?

[/ QUOTE ]I'm an electronics engineer and keep the laptop going most of the time, but I couldn't agree with you more....when it comes to navigation I would never trust a laptop or PC to be 'in the loop'. It makes a great planning aid - to lay courses, enter waypoints, etc., for uploading to a plotter but that's as far as I am prepared to go. It's not that these packages don't work - they do, and they are excellent - it's the reliability of the hardware and the computer as a system if other software is running concurrently.

 

[slavkod]

I have been running my navigation in MED by electronic charts only and have no problems so far. I have 3 GPS system on board and two complete HW and SW chart systems based on two laptops. Buck up energy is generator, wind generator (installed yesterday) and sun cells which will be installed next week. We have sailed 5000 miles with this configuration.

Slavko

 

[charles_reed]

I'd warn against your proposed course of action on 2 counts>

1. The raster chart is obsolescent and is, in fact, being phased out in anything but commercial chartplotters.
2. Though I use a laptop on board, have made a living from advising on IT, and have an electronic navigation system mounted on my laptop I would NEVER use a laptop as a serious means of electronic navigation.
Keep to a dedicated chartplotter, they're cheap anough nowadays and streets ahead of any PC option.

If you are committed to going down this route you would be best advised to buy the Maxsea system - it's the one used by most of the single-handed racers, will use both raster and vector charts and has a number of bolt-on goodies such as being able to plan the best course to steer in view of outlooked weather input in the form of grib files, VMG courses etc.

 

[Oldhand]

I have been using a semi-permanently installed "cappuccino" type mini PC with a 15" TFT monitor built in at the chart table and infra-red keyboard and mouse for over 2 years and have not had any chart-plotting failures running MaxSea. PC's aren't necessarily inherently unreliable, IMHO it is usually the user that makes them unreliable either by mishandling, lack of maintenance or loading imperfect software. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been using a.... mini PC.... for over 2 years and have not had any chart-plotting failures running MaxSea. PC's aren't necessarily inherently unreliable, IMHO it is usually the user that makes them unreliable either by mishandling, lack of maintenance or loading imperfect software.

[/ QUOTE ]What maintenance do you carry out? I agree about software; if I were ever going to rely on a PC of any sort as the only means of accessing my charts and doing chartwork then I would dedicate a machine for that purpose alone. No internet, no MS Office, no pictures, no audio, no videos, no weatherfax/RTTY/Sailmail, etc. Even then I would want a backup with all charts ready to go within five minutes of power on, fed from a separate power supply. The thought of bobbing around on the sea, out of sight of land, with nothing other than my old Philips School Atlas to get around fills me with horror. But then again, I suppose it's more than Cook had!

As for being 'inherently unreliable', all electronic equipment is inherently unreliable - no component or connector is infallible or will last for ever. To get the highest reliability you design for the lowest number of components, provide very generous margins on the rating of all components, use components only from manufacturers with a known quality record, check the equipment designs carefully over a wide range of environmental factors (temperature, shock, vibration, humidity, salt spray, RFI, supply voltage), seal the electronics against ingress of contaminants, provide RFI filters on critical cables, amongst other things. I have not come across a PC built to this sort of standard although I believe that some are available at a very high cost. All of the Furuno and Raymarine equipment that I have had within the last five years has all appeared to be made to this sort of standard. My Dell laptop most definitely is not - it hasn't let me down yet, but that doesn't prove anything.

My own choice (forced on me because I bought a boat with a Raymarine R80 Radar/Plotter) is CMap cartridges with a CMap USB card reader. At least I can use the electronic charts in the Raymarine plotter, my standalone Navman plotter and the PC (though not at the same time).

 

[Ships_Cat]

Don't let the nay sayers pushing the unreliability thing put you off. Given your background I suspect you might be as happy as a pig in mud with a charting system on a PC (or in my case am as happy as a cat with cream /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

There is no comparison possible between a recreational market plotter and a charting system on a PC, from the points of view of screen size, versatility and functionality.

A number of years ago I was not convinced but gave it a go and have never looked back. Those who have seen the on board computers that got the Apollo missions to and onto the moon and back will surely snigger at the thought of a modern PC being too unreliable to use to navigate a yacht around on the sea.

As you are probably aware, huge numbers of cruising boats and other small vessels safely and happily navigate using PC's and the numbers doing so will only increase.

John

 

[Talbot]

Ellen has just had her hard drive fail on her main computer system on B&Q. This is the most likely item to fail due to the banging and crashhing it is subjected to, however, she carried a spare hard drive already made up with all the programmes etc, so was able to do a very quick swap out. - no different to any other piece of boats equipment.

 

[halcyon]

A passing question, why are we worrying about hard drives, when we now have 2 GB flash cards on the shelf, plus what's in the pipeline. With high volume memory in the PC and solid state external / internal flash cards, may not be quite as fast as a hard drive, but is speed that critical for a boat ?.

Brian

 

[slavkod]

Things are changing and move to electronic navigation systems is the fact of life. Now, one can take it or not. It is up to him or her. When I have starter flying we were all in VOR and ADF and ILS etc. and believed that this will not change, It have changed. Today mostly flaying is with GPS and not so much with other systems.
A good backups systems are critical and will require additional investment in power and other supporting systems on board of modern vessel.
But there are people who sailing with much less and survive as well. I am more worried about collision with ships and other boats than anything else. And weather.

Slavko

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
I am more worried about collision with ships and other boats than anything else. And weather.

[/ QUOTE ]While I agree with your priorities, going for all-electronic charting means you might lose all your charts in a flash. Then what do you do? I have CMap cartridges but I cannot afford to keep backups so if I have a faulty super-wide cartridge I would lose all my charts for the English Channel or the Iberian Peninsular - Atlantic, for example. That is quite aside from the PC going down. That's partly why I keep paper charts and update the areas I am interested in.

David

 

[slavkod]

I have 3 GPS systems on board and two laptops with electronic charts. Plus 2 copies of SW. So far it worked well. I would never go without backup system.

Slavko

 

[Anonymous]

That sounds sensible. I've been toying with the idea of putting a small sealed lead acid battery in the nav electronics bay to provide a totally independent backup in case of total power failure. Just enough for an hour or so to give me time to sort out any problem. When I consider that I can take out the entire nav electrical supply by turning off either one of two switches, it makes me realise how vulnerable that is.

 

[boatmike]

I agree with most of what others have said in general but would summarise my own thoughts as follows.
The achilles heel of laptops is the hard drive. Bound to be. Moving parts and all that. They also need to be kept dry.
They do have wonderfully large screens though and you can "buy" any new chart from Cmap with a phone call from anywhere. Also PC's are cheap compared with a dedicated chart plotter.
Chart Plotters are more expensive and so are the cartridges but they are robust and waterproof and have no moving parts but the screens are tiny compared with a PC. unless you spend lots of money.
Either can break down however (although in theory the PC is more likely to) so personally I wouild still keep your paper chartwork up to date whatever you buy.

I have just bought a PC with a 17inch screen and will run WinChart which is superbly user friendly and clear to use. I will however keep my old chartplotter and site it in the cockpit as I have been able to buy second hand cartridges for it to cover my intended cruising ground in the eastern Med this year. I also have the area covered by paper charts although some of them are a bit beyond their sell by date.
Belt and braces? Well yes! but I can use the PC for planning and will also compare my old charts and cartridges with the new edition C maps on my PC for each leg and note any differences. The PC system is much easier to use than a dedicated chart plotter for passage planning.
But I will STILL update my course and position on paper charts on passage.
Would I rely on a PC alone? No way!
Would I rely on a chart plotter alone? Nope!
If I were to rely on any equipment 100% it would be a pencil!
My advice from where you are would be based on what type of boat you have and what type of sailing you do. I have a catamaran which is very dry and does not roll about throwing things on the deck all the time. I will also be sailing in the Med
For that use I would have a PC. If I was in one of those damp uncomfortable monohull thingies and crashing around in the southern ocean I would have a chartplotter.....

 

[Talbot]

C-Map ctgs for the plotter -- primary system
C-mapecs + laptop - primary planning, and secondary navigation
some paper charts covering main area, + pilots for detailed harbour charts
spare GPS
Sextant (and ability to use it)
if all else fails, compass and echo sounder.

Now what else have I forgotten.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
C-Map ctgs for the plotter -- primary system
C-mapecs + laptop - primary planning, and secondary navigation
some paper charts covering main area, + pilots for detailed harbour charts
spare GPS

[/ QUOTE ]Did you manage to get a price reduction for the laptop CMap cartography since you already have the cartridges?

 

[Ships_Cat]

Ellen has just had her hard drive fail on her main computer system on B&Q.

That is a pity. I assume that she is now lost and can't find her way home /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I have to say that this unreliability thing is being pushed to nonsensical limits. All a bit like a paper chart user spending all their time worrying in case the ship's cat craps on an important part of the current chart.

The familiar themes that come up here and elsewhere are:

Unreliable - not so. In fact after using almost every day and owning many different PC's over the last 25 years onshore (including many in client's premises) and on board, I have only had two instances where the computer has stopped working and a simple reboot did not fix. In both of those instances the machine showed clear symptoms of impending hardware failure well before the actual end. In all that time I have never had a PC that has had a hard drive failure (uncluding using notebooks on boats, planes, and things and carting them around the world in a bag)

Use alot of power - not so, modern laptops struggle to get much above an amp or so. May be important if one lives on a very meanly powered boat, but that excludes most of us. Even if power is at a premium on board, they also do not have to run all the time except when close to dangers.

Charging laptop batteries uses alot of power - well, not sure what the relevance of that is cos all one is doing is transfering that energy store from the ships battery to the computers battery. It is not lost, except for a miniscule conversion loss.

They don't like water - well many of us, like Boatmike (even though we are not blessed with catamarans /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) do not sail wet boats. Our TV, our SSB, our stereo, our electrical switchboard, etc, etc all don't like water either but they do not get wet.

You have to have a backup - well that is obvious to all. In my own case that backup is sometimes another computer and sometimes paper charts. In the case of it being paper charts, my confidence in the ECS is such that I do not worry about large scale charts - only scale sufficient to get by with and I now do not correct them (they have never been used as a backup yet). In home waters known to me I would not be bothered if I found myself without any backup, as I can get home chartless.

For my own case ECS also has an enormous safety advantage because here all of our official electronic charts are basically free. We now sail with every chart on board as they are so cheap you can only buy the whole lot - an obvious safety improvement.

Although this post is hung off yours Mark, I am not getting at you as I appreciate your posts - it is so only though convenience /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John