overturned catamaran

[catalac08]

last friday when it was pretty windy and lots of other lifeboat activity there was VHF traffic between a yacht in the solent (I think this was the location) and the coastguard regarding an overturned cat found drifting - from the discussions it seemed that two people were fielded from the water by another boat. Good to see no casualties, anyone have info on the boat type and the circumstances of this capsize?

 

[Alfie168]

Are you sure it wasn't a Macgregor catamaran wihtout its water ballast tank full................................................(Just joking..honest, and pleased nobody hurt)

Tim

 

[boatmike]

last friday when it was pretty windy and lots of other lifeboat activity there was VHF traffic between a yacht in the solent (I think this was the location) and the coastguard regarding an overturned cat found drifting - from the discussions it seemed that two people were fielded from the water by another boat. Good to see no casualties, anyone have info on the boat type and the circumstances of this capsize?

I think it was a little Dart or Hobie rather than a cruising boat. Thats what I was told but I don't have any solid info.

 

[bilbobaggins]

Cat capsizes

I think it was a little Dart or Hobie rather than a cruising boat. Thats what I was told but I don't have any solid info.

This is the source of the perception, widely held, that 'catamarans capsize and are dangerous because of that'. For many years, the RNLI's 'Return Of Service' sent to HQ after a 'shout' listed ALL services made to multihulls large and small, cruising and racing, under the one same heading - 'catamarans'.

Consequently, when each year's statistics summaries were published, there were scores if not hundreds of 'catamaran capsizes' in the printouts. That almost the entire group, year on year, consisted of attendances to beach cat mishaps was neither noticed nor commented. The RYA - bless their cotton sox - accepted this recurring and misleading picture without query, and actively promulgated the view that 'cats are dangerous'. Yachting journalists also accepted this false perspective without question, and compounded the prejudice by printing the RYA's misuse of the RNLI Rescue Record stats summaries.

When one went back through the records as far as possible, tracing the circumstances of each and every specific 'incident' to boats of a size that could possibly be a cruising cat or tri, it emerged there were only 7 such incidents over more than a decade's worth of records - and 5 of these were to foreign boats, such as a French chartered cat south of Guernsey, where the RNLI had responded....

All of these incidents were, on digging deeper, clearly due to apparently-determined mishandling, where the fault lay clearly with those on board and not the intrinsic designs.

As an example, several years ago, a large British-registered catamaran was inverted a day's sail north of the Azores. This vessel had been designed as a very light 'front_of_the_grid' racer, but was then carrying a crew of elderly blue-water cruising types on a 'jolly'.

The details that emerged were scanty, but among the various terse comments which were pieced together by the multi community included "The squall came out of nowhere", "We had the big spinnaker up and the autohelm on", "We were down below having lunch", "We couldn't get to the spinni sheets quite fast enough", and "No-one could have anticipated that could happen...."

The distortion implicit in the RNLI's records was reported to the RYA through its 'Small Craft Committee', and MOCRA - through its rep - requested that the misleading perspective be corrected. The RYA's Head of Training at that time was a retired RN Seamanship Instructor who worked to the rule 'Don't ever apologise. Don't ever explain. Don't ever concede you may be wrong'.

Both MOCRA and its rep are still waiting.....

 

[barfly4657]

Capsizing catamarans

Could you remind us of the circumstances surrounding an inverted Hirondelle in the Solent a few years ago? Wasn't a doctor singlehanding at the time?

 

[bilbobaggins]

Could you remind us of the circumstances surrounding an inverted Hirondelle in the Solent a few years ago? Wasn't a doctor singlehanding at the time?

Yes, I could, but won't. For fear of the lawyers..... The MAIB accounts are available.

It may be you are 'conflating' two separate incidents. In one, a delivery crew with very limited multihull know-how set off in actual heavy weather to deliver the boat to its new home, and had far too much sail up. Apparently, in a serious gust, the boat lifted a hull, the crew were unaware of the need to release sheets, so over it went.

In another, sailing from Poole to somewhere in the Solent, a crew which included an 'important member' of the RORC's Safety Committee and a well-known racing skipper took a small trimaran into the Needles Channel in big wind from the SW and a full Spring ebb, with the spinnaker up and 'all plain sail' - contrary to the advice of an 'involved' well-known Olympic Gold Medallist. They were apparently oblivious to the problem of BIG standing, breaking waves until the helmsman was thrown across the cockpit, losing his grip on the stick. That's when the boat dug in a float, broached and went over. A classic 'trip over the lee bow' scenario. The aforementioned 'important member', who was a doctor, took great pains to blame the design of the boat. There were other opinions.....

Does that help?

 

[jamesjermain]

Bilbo, may I take very gentle issue with you over your comment about journos taking RNLI statistics at face value. In the late nineties I wrote more than one piece, including an editorial, criticising the RNLI statistics for bundling shore, beach and offshore statistics together in a misleading way.

The Coastguard statistics were even worse; the most outageous piece of bundling was the inclusion of a suicide at Rye railway station. I can't remember the details of the incident but I believe the excuse was the person had been on the beach during the day.

In those days we were agruably too cat-centric. The staff, after all, was headed by Geoff Pack - serial cat owner - myself - cat fellow-traveller and subsequent owner - and Paul Gender - trimaran owner.

I also don't entirely recognise you description of the former Training manageer of the RNLI

 

[bilbobaggins]

Bilbo, may I take very gentle issue with you over your comment about journos taking RNLI statistics at face value. In the late nineties I wrote more than one piece, including an editorial, criticising the RNLI statistics for bundling shore, beach and offshore statistics together in a misleading way.

I recall sitting under a tree many aeons ago, while my Personal Spritual Mentor warned me of the dangers of offending three important types - a Traffic Officer while in charge of a vehicle, a Dentist whilst in the chair, and a Lurking Journalist....

I will not name, in 'ere, the journos I have in mind but am content to do so privately, over a beer sometime, should it be deemed still important enough to quibble over. And I do NOT include 'Old Father Time' George Taylor in my line-up of miscreants, for he famously lent his vigorous support to the inclusion, by the DTI, of yotties' representations among the RCD consultations. We still honour his name....

The distortions within the RNLI Rescue Records stats came about due to the information, collected for one purpose, being used for quite another purpose altogether by peeps who should - and did - know better. The layout and headings in the RNLI's 'Returns Of Service' forms were not then designed for use in any form of trends analysis; the data fields were not appropriate to the inferences made subsequently, and analyses were made and published by individuals untrained in statistics, but well-practised in 'spin'.

And as for......

I also don't entirely recognise you description of the former Training manageer of the RNLI (sic)

....."You may very well think so. I couldn't possibly comment...."

All this went on during the Reign of the Two Robins, and I had opportunity to discuss this difficulty on more than one occasion with the benign old brigadiers.


"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

 

[jamesjermain]

Bilbo,

I'm not offended in the least and heaven forfend that I should lurk! It's less than unimportant and not worth a single quibble

I agree with everything you say. The RNLI statistics were and are misleading, not very well collated and not very well presented. I don't defend them. On the contrary.

I drink to the editorship of George Taylor

 

[NorthUp]

.........The RYA's Head of Training at that time was a retired RN Seamanship Instructor.......

The RNLI HQ is well know as a retirment home for the Navy- but you did say RYA!

 

[bilbobaggins]

.....heaven forfend that I should lurk! .....I drink to the editorship of George Taylor

You are among friends.

 

[ribrunt]

The RNLI statistics were and are misleading, not very well collated and not very well presented

....by others who used them to serve different purposes, rather than the RNLI, in this instance perhaps?

 

[boatmike]

Bilbo,

I'm not offended in the least and heaven forfend that I should lurk! It's less than unimportant and not worth a single quibble

I agree with everything you say. The RNLI statistics were and are misleading, not very well collated and not very well presented. I don't defend them. On the contrary.

I drink to the editorship of George Taylor

Are you sure you weren't lurking? Not even a teensy bit? Oh well OK then!!

The point is well made though. In any field, journalists like to create an interesting story. The problem really comes about when journalists report facts they don't understand without sufficient informed commentary. CATAMARAN CAPSIZE>>>> TWO MEN RESCUED!!!
Now that could well be (and I think was in this case) a racing 2 man hobie or dart being over enthusiastically raced by an inexperienced crew picked up by a passing RIB. Or it could be a damn great ferry that has had a disaster and drowned 170 people with only 2 survivors!! The devil, as they say is in the detail.... In any significant incident the MCA get involved and there is a full investigation. None in this case though so not significant.

I think we should start reporting any yachting incident thet involves half a boat as "monohulls" Then we would get MONOHULL CAPSIZES, 2 MEN RESCUED!!!!! every time a dinghy ditches.... Might put the monohull v multihull debate in perspective don't you think?