Overloading

[DanTribe]

I see that a charter skipper has been fined for carrying too many passengers. Now I realise that is because he exceeded his MCA Coding, but 20 people on a 55 foot mobo doesn't seem dangerously excessive.
However, suppose I took a large posse out on my 1970s 31 foot raggie, no coding, no CE plate, who would decide whether I was overloaded or not?

 

[FullCircle]

I see that a charter skipper has been fined for carrying too many passengers. Now I realise that is because he exceeded his MCA Coding, but 20 people on a 55 foot mobo doesn't seem dangerously excessive.
However, suppose I took a large posse out on my 1970s 31 foot raggie, no coding, no CE plate, who would decide whether I was overloaded or not?

Non commercial private gathering - The Skipper!

Bit like the drinking question - it will only be tested at the inquest.

 

[westhinder]

I see that a charter skipper has been fined for carrying too many passengers. Now I realise that is because he exceeded his MCA Coding, but 20 people on a 55 foot mobo doesn't seem dangerously excessive.
However, suppose I took a large posse out on my 1970s 31 foot raggie, no coding, no CE plate, who would decide whether I was overloaded or not?

I do not know about the UK, but Belgian legislation requires us to have a life jacket for every person on board.

 

[Sandyman]

I see that a charter skipper has been fined for carrying too many passengers. Now I realise that is because he exceeded his MCA Coding, but 20 people on a 55 foot mobo doesn't seem dangerously excessive.
However, suppose I took a large posse out on my 1970s 31 foot raggie, no coding, no CE plate, who would decide whether I was overloaded or not?

I have a feeling King Neptune would let you know.

 

[minkysailing]

I think you are missing the point....

One side is a commercial requirement to protect the paying public....and he broke the rules and has been fined.

The other side is being responsible as a owner/skipper and leaving yourself open to being prosecuted through the courts if it all goes pear shaped.

 

[DanTribe]

I think you are missing the point....

One side is a commercial requirement to protect the paying public....and he broke the rules and has been fined.

The other side is being responsible as a owner/skipper and leaving yourself open to being prosecuted through the courts if it all goes pear shaped.

Well I think that IS my point.
If more than 12 peeps on a 55ft professional boat is too many, who judges how many I can have on a 31ft amateur boat.
I could conceive that we could have more than a dozen, if out for a family & friends daysail / picnic, especially if grand-kids invite friends and parents.
Probably max 6 if going offshore, but have raced with 8 before.
Are we saying that only a judge can tell me after the event?

 

[prv]

Well I think that IS my point.
If more than 12 peeps on a 55ft professional boat is too many, who judges how many I can have on a 31ft amateur boat.

You do.

Are we saying that only a judge can tell me after the event?

That is kind of what they're for. Not every aspect of human behaviour can be laid down and regulated in advance.

Pete

 

[Talulah]

There are some guidelines: (Overloading)
On boats less than 26 feet in length the max persons loading capacity is LxB/15 (dimensions in feet.)
This doesn't apply to boats >26 feet as stability becomes the dominant factor.
Boats > 26 feet would need to have the designers input.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Where does that guideline come from? Let's say that Inhave a 30' boat with 10' beam then the guide would allow for 30 people on board which to
me seems very excessive.
For the boat in question the guide would allow approx 55 people, rather more than the 12 permitted!

 

[duncan99210]

The MCA issues licences for commercial boats that specify the max number of passenger that may be embarked. The numbers in the licence are determined by a number of factors, not just the actual physical carrying capacity of the boat. The qualifications held by the skipper are one factor; he may have the minimum requriement, which would limit him to a smaller number than a skipper with more extensive qualifications. Other factors might include the life saving equipment carried and the like.

As regards your non commercial boat, if it doesn't have an RCD rating with a maximum payload/passenger number, then you really have to rely on your own commonsense. You know when your boat is overloaded by looking at the waterline and by the feeling of incipient instability.

 

[Tranona]

Can't recall the full details, but there was a case a few years ago of an overloaded small cruiser that capsized with loss of life on an inland waterway. The owners/skipper was charged with manslaughter.

So the answer to the original question is that in the abscence of any formal loading limitations you have to rely on your best judgement and if something goes wrong then your judgement may be questioned in a court of law.

 

[Resolution]

In this respect the Coding requirements are pretty good common sense - enough bods to reasonably fill the charter boat, plus a liferaft space and a life jacket for each person (with a couple of jackets spare in case).
When I was involved with a charter fleet we would code our 43 footers (which had 11 bunks) for that number of people. Our 54 footers were most often used for day charters, but had fewer bunks, so we only coded them for 12 bods despite being much better able to carry the weight.
On the private side, my boat has a prominent RCD plaque saying 10 persons. We only have 8 lifejackets, so that is my choice for a limit when underway.
However in harbour I think these limits can be exceeded safely - one time in Yarmouth we found we had 29 persons (and a lot of Pimms) inside a Bavaria 49 in a rainstorm......

 

[maxi77]

Well I think that IS my point.
If more than 12 peeps on a 55ft professional boat is too many, who judges how many I can have on a 31ft amateur boat.
I could conceive that we could have more than a dozen, if out for a family & friends daysail / picnic, especially if grand-kids invite friends and parents.
Probably max 6 if going offshore, but have raced with 8 before.
Are we saying that only a judge can tell me after the event?

Many commercial boats of that size carry more, depends on construction and purpose and safety gear carried. Skylark trips round the bay tend to get a lot more in a boat than a game fishing boat though they may be the same length. He may have only wanted certification for 12.

For your boat it is your judgement, though it varies from country to country. My boat has six functional bunks and locally here they can enforce that though I may well have more lifejackets and most versions of the boat have at least 8 bunks.

 

[snowleopard]

If there were an accident one can easily imagine reports in the media - 'There were not enough lifejackets to go around'. Followed closely by demands for the skipper to go on trial for manslaughter.

 

[DownWest]

Part of this is is the 'old idea' that people accepted their responsibility if they engaged in something that might go wrong. Nowadays it is down to the small print in the lawyers handbook. So beware.
DW

 

[maxi77]

If there were an accident one can easily imagine reports in the media - 'There were not enough lifejackets to go around'. Followed closely by demands for the skipper to go on trial for manslaughter.

Are you suggesting that people should not be held accountable for their actions

 

[alan_d]

According to the current edition of BoatU.S. magazine:

The average American has put on a considerable number of pounds in the past 40 years, so many that the U.S. Coast Guard recently adjusted the federal safety regulations governing the number of passengers that may be carried aboard commercial vessels, such as tour boats, water taxis and ferries, meaning that they're allowed to carry fewer people than before. The Coast Guard is concerned about what might happen if heavy passengers all move to one side,for example, when a ferry docks or an excursion boat moves in to view a migrating pod of whales. ... "We don't see a need to follow this line of action for recreational boats at this time," said Phil Cappel, chief of the Coast Guard's Recreational Boating Product Assurance Branch.

 

[oldharry]

Fundamental difference in law between a private boatload of friends, and a boat carrying paying passengers.

As Duncan says, as soon as people are paying to be on a boat it becomes a commercial vessel and subject to strict regulations concerning numbers of passengers, design, stability, safety equipment carried, training of skipper and crew and so on. This goes for any private boat, as soon as anyone is expected to pay to come aboard.

The magic number 12 people on board is an arbritatry legal figure. Up to 12 people, the licensing requirements are less stringent than for a boat carrying more, and the skipper does not need to be so highly qualified.

The RCD plate on a private leisure boat in practice mainly covers manufacturers liability. Should the party on Innesker's Bav 49 have ended in disaster, there would have been no chance of a claim against Bav Yachts Ltd for any design or structural compromise that might have contributed to it. It has nothing to do with the actual safe loading capacity of the boat. Simply the boatbuilder ensuring he is off the hook if you put a few more on board than he intended.