Out of the frying pan and into the fire

[Deleted member 478]

Reading through all the political threads on here reminds me of South Africa in the height of the apartheid days; secret police, house arrest, state of emergency.... It seems to me that HMG is taking a leaf from the ex- SA regimes book.

 

[Rowana]

[ QUOTE ]
Reading through all the political threads on here reminds me of South Africa in the height of the apartheid days; secret police, house arrest, state of emergency.... It seems to me that HMG is taking a leaf from the ex- SA regimes book.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is SA better now or then ??

.

 

[Deleted member 478]

I don't know because I haven't lived in SA for 11 years, but speaking to friends in SA, it would seem that life there is now really good.

 

[Gunfleet]

<<So is SA better now or then ??>>
Presumably you're not black.

 

[Rowana]

Born and raised in the land of haggis and whisky, although I've passed through SA in my yoof (a long time ago)

 

[Peppermint]

Re: Double standards and hidden agendas

If you were taken hostage by terrorists our government wouldn't negotiate your release. "We can't be seen to be giving into terror" they tell your grieving family.

Luckily, changing the complete basis for english law, throwing out the burden of proof and detaining people on unsubstantiated tittle tattle isn't seen as giving into terror.

I never did much constitutional studying but I did a bit. I seem to remember having the principle of checks and balances explained thus.

In the UK and ignoring the Monarchy and the Armed Forces we are left with three strands of the establishment to keep us safe and secure.

We have the elected government, the police/security services and the judges.

The government want to get us thinking on the right lines and to control us.
The police/security lot want to know all about us and control us.
The judges stop the other two getting their own way.

So when Tony stands up and say's " I'm advised by the security services". That means they've told him to build a big wall, lock everyone up, blanket the place with surveillence and log all movements. Now Tony, who's job depends on being popular, has to water all of this down, compromise like hell and try and fiddle a "middle way". Both Tony and the security services, or SS as we call them, would settle for any compromise that marginalizes the Judges though. Cos that's like getting the keys to the sweet shop.

The sort of powers that Tony is looking for are not uncommon in other countries. Countries with a weak or corrupt judiciary. I just can't think of a country like that that I'd like to live in. Can you.

That George Orwell was a clever bloke.

 

[Das_Boot]

I dont know about you Stingo but when I came to England I believed I was coming to the best liberal democracy in the world. It worrys me to see civil libertys taken for granted. Look how it helped the nationalist Goverment in SA. I can remember the same lousy excuses used there the same Swart Gevaar and total onslaught nightmare scenario as the boot came down. It did not help them in the long run. Mind you Magie Thatcher and Ronald Regan helped to extend the life of the Apartheid Regime.

 

[Captain_Chaos]

When I was in Jo'burg last year, I was told when driving to leave a gap behind the car in front to allow an escape route in case of an attempted hi-jacking, that i should be safe in the gated housing community because the grounds were patrolled by armed guards, not to walk out at night. It was just like living in Nottingham. And as Tone is now intent on solving Africas problems he is introducing government controls that would not be out of place in Zimbabwe

 

[zefender]

Re: Double standards and hidden agendas

"The sort of powers that Tony is looking for are not uncommon in other countries. Countries with a weak or corrupt judiciary. I just can't think of a country like that that I'd like to live in. Can you"

It's not necessarily countries with a weak or corrupt judiciary. France is able to detain people for years without trail. I wouldn't mind living there!

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: Double standards and hidden agendas

At least you would be free to choose. And if you dont like the government you can throw them out.
In South Africa the crime is no higher now than what it was under the Nationalists, it was just never reported.
The Townships were charnel houses on the weekend they were underfunded underpoliced and the level of corruption umongst the white officials had to be seen to be believed. Throwing millions of poor people together with no police and cheep booze, has an outcome that does not reflect the character of the average South African. Another thing that nationalists could never come to terms with was that per capita their own kind were more likley to commit violent crime.
Everybody talks up the crime stats even in this country I cannot believe the fear of crime here, in fact the fear of everything.

 

[CharlesM]

<<So is SA better now or then ??>>

I guess it depends on whom you are talking to. Most are quite upbeat, but if you are white you really need to be self employed in order to achieve much due to 'affirmative' action.

In some cases the country is going backwards though. My brother is a vet there. He used to do what vets do to the police dogs, but after months of trying to get his money out of the SAP (South African Police) including loads of personal visits to try find the responsible person, he eventually wrote them off as a bad debt and does not do any work for the SAP anymore. His opinion is the affirmitive action is the cause for the failure to pay - people sitting in rooms with an empty desk and a heater and drawing a state salary...

I am sure there are equivalent stories from the white south africa days as well. It's not about race (well it is) but about people being put in a job because of the colour of their skin rather than their level of competence.

so - I guess there are stories on both sides.

In summary I think it is better off. I am sure that SA would have sunk into a nasty civil war if changes had not occured.

Cheers
Charles
==========
14 days... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Das_Boot]

My uncle was killed shot through the head interupting a robbery in a corner shop. Another Uncle was killed by a lump of concrete thrown through the windshield, he took a wrong turn. This was under the nat government. Both my brothers have been robbed at gunpoint, my niece was hi-jacked last week but came to no harm. This was under the democraticaly elected government. None of them blame the fall of apartheid none of them believe the country is worse off. My mother lives alone she does not live in fear. In fact none of them do.

 

[Peppermint]

Re: I\'m not convinced

that you can choose your government in any real sense. You might change the players but the game is broadly the same. Choice is the myth of democracy. Party politics and the staus quo seem to restrict change to the margins. Much perceived change is spin and emphisis.

As to the fear of crime and everything else. That's smoke and mirrors too! You won't find people in general are afraid if you ask them. You have to wonder who gain's by spreading fear.

When will the steps taken make us feel secure?

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: I\'m not convinced

A politician might stir up the fear then promise to put more police on the streets however this is a conservative tactic when they are in power as conservatives are reactionary by nature and fear any change to the status quo.
Labour beeing in power should do their best to show that the streets are safe under them.
Just like power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely the older a government gets the more reactionary they become causing them to jump like mad hares at every scare in the media be it health or anything for that matter.
I think the media are largley to blame for the scares in this country. this does not mean that I am advocating restricting them but we should understand it is in their interests to maintain a high state of uncertainty umongst their readers so that we will buy the paper to try to gather information to resolve this uncertainty.