Original VAT Receipt

[davidfox]

In process of selling and the prospective buyer wants to see the original Vat receipt from 1987
I have all the bills of sale back to the manufacturers, originals except the first which was a copy, hull certificate and builders certificate all originals, but no vat receipt from Moodys, my mortgage people never asked for a sight of anything.
The original bill of sale from Moodys has a box in the top corner which states 'Prescribed by the commissioners of customs and excise with the consent of the secretary of state for transport'.
anyone got any ideas?

 

[GrahamM376]

In process of selling and the prospective buyer wants to see the original Vat receipt from 1987
I have all the bills of sale back to the manufacturers, originals except the first which was a copy, hull certificate and builders certificate all originals, but no vat receipt from Moodys, my mortgage people never asked for a sight of anything.
The original bill of sale from Moodys has a box in the top corner which states 'Prescribed by the commissioners of customs and excise with the consent of the secretary of state for transport'.
anyone got any ideas?

You have a letterhead, if you have a scanner and DTP it's not much work to produce an invoice.

 

[LittleSister]

Why is the prospective owner interested in seeing it? No one else will be. I worried about lack of original VAT receipt years ago with a 1970s boat I wanted to take to France, but no-one has ever asked to see the VAT papers for that or any other boat I've had either here or abroad.

Perhaps if one had a newish, expensive looking boat, customs somewhere might be interested, but for a boat nearly 30 years old I very much doubt it.

 

[Tranona]

There is no practical need for a VAT receipt nor any legal requirement to have it. The buyer is taken in by the hype around such things that seem to override reason and commonsense. There are of course situations where evidence of VAT payment is vital, but from what you have described this is not one of them. You have an unbroken record of transactions from a VAT registered seller to a private individual and then Bills of Sale for every transaction between private individuals. There is no way VAT was not paid, nor any reason why anybody, least of all HMRC should raise any query - your lack of evidence is their lack of evidence. In other words there is no other record than that original receipt so nothing to suggest any offence has taken place.

Annoying though it is you are in no different position from many others who have a boat built in the days when it was not considered important to keep the receipt. All you can do is suggest the buyer read the VAT explanation on the RYA website to hopefully put his mind at rest. Pity the boat is not a year older as the question would be completely irrelevant!

 

[Colvic Watson]

Watch out for the come back suggesting a 10% reduction in the price "just in case"

 

[robmcg]

Alternatively, contact Princess down in Plymouth (formerly Marine Projects who built your Moody). If you talk to them nicely, they may dig out the original paperwork from when your boat was built, it may make reference to a VAT payment. Worth a punt?

 

[Heckler]

In process of selling and the prospective buyer wants to see the original Vat receipt from 1987
I have all the bills of sale back to the manufacturers, originals except the first which was a copy, hull certificate and builders certificate all originals, but no vat receipt from Moodys, my mortgage people never asked for a sight of anything.
The original bill of sale from Moodys has a box in the top corner which states 'Prescribed by the commissioners of customs and excise with the consent of the secretary of state for transport'.
anyone got any ideas?

Quickbooks or Sage and a laser printer?
Stu

 

[lpdsn]

Quickbooks or Sage and a laser printer?
Stu

When invoicing customers I just use Word (actually OpenOffice which looks like Word but has the added advantage you can produce a PDF).

For 1987, the OP might need a typewriter.

 

[Heckler]

When invoicing customers I just use Word (actually OpenOffice which looks like Word but has the added advantage you can produce a PDF).

For 1987, the OP might need a typewriter.

I looked up when laser printers came out, the HP laserjets came out around then.
Stu

 

[jonic]

Sorry but it can happen.

I was having lunch yesterday with a skipper of an older 40ft yacht value circa £20,000.

It had been built in Holland but VAT receipt lost, it then went out to the Caribbean and came back in and was in the Itchen for 6 months. The skipper was going to move on but was late leaving. Customs arrested him and impounded the boat until he paid up £3k.

Slightly different as the boat had left the EU and returned with a new owner so lost it's VAT paid status anyway - buy they are interested in older, lower value boats if they have a reason to be.

The skipper was utterly shocked.

If a boat with no proof of VAT (not even a copy of the original) moves around a bit it could find it's self needing to prove status.

The chances are low, but a bill of sale will not cut it on the wrong day with the wrong official as member states can now collect on behalf of others.

There is some risk however low.

 

[nigelmercier]

... I just use ... OpenOffice which looks like Word but has the added advantage you can produce a PDF ...

You mean like you can in Word?

 

[GrahamM376]

If a boat with no proof of VAT (not even a copy of the original) moves around a bit it could find it's self needing to prove status.

Outside the UK it's not unusual to be asked for proof of VAT status and, in Portugal for instance, even an outboard engine can't be registered to a boat without complete engine paperwork trail from new, including the original purchaser's VAT invoice.

 

[Tranona]

Outside the UK it's not unusual to be asked for proof of VAT status and, in Portugal for instance, even an outboard engine can't be registered to a boat without complete engine paperwork trail from new, including the original purchaser's VAT invoice.

But that only applies (usually) to goods purchased in that state. Most other EU states have stricter procedures in relation to recording and verifying VAT payments - in the case of boats, outboards etc because they also have quite separate mechanisms for registration of such items so it is much easier to have rules that join VAT payment to legal compulsory registration. This is not the case in the UK and there is nothing in law that says you have to record any proof of VAT payment. The responsibility for accounting for VAT is with the seller, not the buyer so the only record of payment in relation to an individual sale is the seller's invoice.

As jonic says generally other states are not interested in VAT payments on boats bought in other states except where there is something that suggests a potential VAT offence. The common one is, as he describes is where boats have spent time outside the EU (and therefore potentially lost their VAT paid status) or imported privately - two high profile cases running currently in Italy involving well known football club owners are examples. However from the information the OP provides none of this is applicable in relation to his boat, so the risk of any problems related to lack of the original invoice is very low, even non existent.

 

[Tranona]

Alternatively, contact Princess down in Plymouth (formerly Marine Projects who built your Moody). If you talk to them nicely, they may dig out the original paperwork from when your boat was built, it may make reference to a VAT payment. Worth a punt?

Although Marine Projects built the boat the sale to the original owner would be by Moody. The VAT invoice from MP to Moodys would not be relevant as Moody would have reclaimed that VAT payment as an input and offset against the VAT that they collected from the customer. It is the transaction from a VAT registered seller to a private buyer that is the key document and the legal requirement is for the seller to keep records for only 6 years, although many businesses (if they stay in business!) do keep them longer. The Moody company of 1987 no longer exists.

 

[Sybarite]

You have a letterhead, if you have a scanner and DTP it's not much work to produce an invoice.

In France that is "faux et usage du faux". Definitey a no no here.

 

[GrahamM376]

However from the information the OP provides none of this is applicable in relation to his boat, so the risk of any problems related to lack of the original invoice is very low, even non existent.

It's not a problem for the OP, except that a potential purchaser wants the VAT invoice. The potential problem is the new owner's if he goes foreign and is unable to produce documents when requested. This doesn't often happen but, when it does, local officials always have their own interpretation of their rules.

 

[Tranona]

It's not a problem for the OP, except that a potential purchaser wants the VAT invoice. The potential problem is the new owner's if he goes foreign and is unable to produce documents when requested. This doesn't often happen but, when it does, local officials always have their own interpretation of their rules.

It is a problem for the OP if the buyer pulls out! The problem of lack of VAT receipt when travelling abroad is vastly overstated and there is little evidence that it does present a problem for UK owned boats. It needs some evidence that a VAT offence has been committed, such as a privately imported boat, one owned by a company or purchased under a VAT reduction scheme to trigger interest by customs officials. A privately owned British boat bought in the UK with a solid paperwork trail is of no interest.

 

[[23929]]

When invoicing customers I just use Word (actually OpenOffice which looks like Word but has the added advantage you can produce a PDF).

For 1987, the OP might need a typewriter.

Adobe Acrobat has a very useful little tool called Typewriter.

 

[BrianH]

The problem of lack of VAT receipt when travelling abroad is vastly overstated and there is little evidence that it does present a problem for UK owned boats. It needs some evidence that a VAT offence has been committed, such as a privately imported boat, one owned by a company or purchased under a VAT reduction scheme to trigger interest by customs officials. A privately owned British boat bought in the UK with a solid paperwork trail is of no interest.

The newly-acceded EU state of Croatia seems to have the impression that it is incumbent for EU boat-owners to prove their VAT-Paid status when in Croatian waters, if a recent newsletter from the publisher of the 777/888 publications, Karl-Heinz Beständig, is anything to go by:

"There are rumours that, from the coming season in Croatia the Community status of boats owned by EU citizens should be verified by police-raids and similar controls. My Assessment about this: The holiday destination for Croatian guests should not be mistrusted and does not justify the use of such actions. However, isolated controls while under way or when declaring in, are to be expected. The Board of Customs in Zagreb therefore advises all boat owners with a Principal residence in the EU to carry a document (purchase invoice with the fact of VAT included, subsequent T2L, tax or customs assessment) of the Community status of the occupied boats. This is also true for those who are berthed outside of Croatia."​

(Translated from the original German)

 

[GrahamM376]

It needs some evidence that a VAT offence has been committed, such as a privately imported boat, one owned by a company or purchased under a VAT reduction scheme to trigger interest by customs officials. A privately owned British boat bought in the UK with a solid paperwork trail is of no interest.

You're wearing rose tinted glasses. Whilst I agree that it doesn't often happen it cause all sorts of hassle when it does. VAT status of a boat is of interest to some countries officials and, it's up to the owner to prove that VAT has been paid, rather than officialdom proving it hasn't, no offence has to be seen to be committed. In many places, you're guilty if you can't prove otherwise.

Your post is contradictory anyway as you say..."A privately owned British boat bought in the UK with a solid paperwork trail is of no interest". The solid paperwork trail has to include the VAT receipt where VAT was applicable when new. I've also found that invoices with a price which is inclusive of VAT can be rejected as they want to see the VAT as a separate amount.

Just to show how strange some laws are elsewhere, look at Portugal, a country where we're based and problems with officialdom are often mentioned. If new white goods (TV, Washing machine etc) are carried in your private car, it's an offence not to have the VAT receipt with you. It is also a serious offence for a bar not to issue a printed receipt for an 80 cent coffee or beer and tills now have to be connected on line directly to dept of finances. They're paperwork crazy and public notaries have jobs for life.

Don't think that because we're British with a British registered boat, they're going to give us leeway.