rodv
New Member
We're new to sailing but are keen to have a boat that can get us around the european waterways and sail the Med. What's the general opinion on motor-sailers? Are they a good compromise, and a good bet for novices?
Opinions on motor-sailers appreciated.....
- Thread starter rodv
- Start date
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Motor-Sailers - When they are motoring, they are not very good motor boats. When they are sailing, they are not very good sailing boats, but sailing with the engine pushing as well, sat in a wheel house with all around visibility, they are pretty good!
So, what I am saying is that they are an acquired taste. Personally I like them, but nowadays pilot house yachts sail better and with a decent size engine, will push the boat along well into a head wind.
So, what I am saying is that they are an acquired taste. Personally I like them, but nowadays pilot house yachts sail better and with a decent size engine, will push the boat along well into a head wind.
temptress
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
We're new to sailing but are keen to have a boat that can get us around the european waterways and sail the Med. What's the general opinion on motor-sailers? Are they a good compromise, and a good bet for novices?
[/ QUOTE ]
well you asked for it. IMO and as you say they are a compromise - not good at sailing an dnot good at being a motorboat. You need to understand the compromise and make up your own mind.
What works for a motor boat usually will not work for a Sailboat so.....
We're new to sailing but are keen to have a boat that can get us around the european waterways and sail the Med. What's the general opinion on motor-sailers? Are they a good compromise, and a good bet for novices?
[/ QUOTE ]
well you asked for it. IMO and as you say they are a compromise - not good at sailing an dnot good at being a motorboat. You need to understand the compromise and make up your own mind.
What works for a motor boat usually will not work for a Sailboat so.....
Neraida
Well-Known Member
Good thinking IMHO.
From what I have been told about the Med, there is either too much wind or none at all (on the whole), so the combiantion of a sea-kindly boat with a big engine and a "low powered rig" is going to be a winner. A lot of boats kicking about in marina's in the med are just such craft, or more traditional rigs with just big(ger) engines.
I would also think that as quite a few motor sailors have draft of 1.5m or there abouts (lower mainly I think), this is going to give you good freedom in the euro-waterways.
What sort of size are you thinking? dare I suggest budgets too..? Nauticats are a good bet, lovely lovely boats, but quite errrr reassuringly expensive!
From what I have been told about the Med, there is either too much wind or none at all (on the whole), so the combiantion of a sea-kindly boat with a big engine and a "low powered rig" is going to be a winner. A lot of boats kicking about in marina's in the med are just such craft, or more traditional rigs with just big(ger) engines.
I would also think that as quite a few motor sailors have draft of 1.5m or there abouts (lower mainly I think), this is going to give you good freedom in the euro-waterways.
What sort of size are you thinking? dare I suggest budgets too..? Nauticats are a good bet, lovely lovely boats, but quite errrr reassuringly expensive!
rodv
New Member
We've got a small budget. Thinking about building.....
Neraida
Well-Known Member
Brilliant!! Good for you.
i have done tons and tons of work into the financial pro's and cons of building our own boat. On the whole, the most important factor in building your own boat is YOU! 150% total dedication is required, no matter how big or small the project is.
People will bang on about "all the broken dreams" you see, half finished mish-mosh etc etc. DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM. Most of the time they are jelous as they know they dont have the dedication or skills to do it themselves. Don't rush into anything. Talk to lots of people.
Phone Bruce Roberts (or at least drop him an email) he's a brilliant guy with passion and understanding. He told us, in no uncertian terms, to "wait a bit", even tho we had the money to make a purchase of one of his kits at the time.
READ LOTS, and then read some more. Not only will this drive you a motivate you, it will also "tune" your ideas into achiveable reality. PM me for a reading list if you want.
On the other hand. Keep an eye out for "unfinished projects" of people who haven't managed to keep their head screwed on, but always always always get the blummin thing surveyed by someone who knows about the type of boat you're looking at (steel, ally, ply/epoxy etc) and go with the surveyor. Chatting to him while he does his job and spends your money is worth it!!
I could say tons more, but it would take all night!
Cheers,
James
i have done tons and tons of work into the financial pro's and cons of building our own boat. On the whole, the most important factor in building your own boat is YOU! 150% total dedication is required, no matter how big or small the project is.
People will bang on about "all the broken dreams" you see, half finished mish-mosh etc etc. DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM. Most of the time they are jelous as they know they dont have the dedication or skills to do it themselves. Don't rush into anything. Talk to lots of people.
Phone Bruce Roberts (or at least drop him an email) he's a brilliant guy with passion and understanding. He told us, in no uncertian terms, to "wait a bit", even tho we had the money to make a purchase of one of his kits at the time.
READ LOTS, and then read some more. Not only will this drive you a motivate you, it will also "tune" your ideas into achiveable reality. PM me for a reading list if you want.
On the other hand. Keep an eye out for "unfinished projects" of people who haven't managed to keep their head screwed on, but always always always get the blummin thing surveyed by someone who knows about the type of boat you're looking at (steel, ally, ply/epoxy etc) and go with the surveyor. Chatting to him while he does his job and spends your money is worth it!!
I could say tons more, but it would take all night!
Cheers,
James
rodv
New Member
Thanks James, all encouragement is very welcome at this stage!
Roddy
Roddy
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
I've always quite fancied one but Mme Sgeir says I've got to wait until I'm old and decrepit.
They may well be a compromise, but, in fairness, there's a lot of variation. I've seen Claymore's Claymore Claymore in action and it seemed to sail pretty well - no doubt his crew, or the great man himself, will add their comments. There's at least one Marcon Claymore for sale at the moment.
I can see a lot of attractions in a motorsailer for extended cruising in the Med - space, shade and comfort being three.
They may well be a compromise, but, in fairness, there's a lot of variation. I've seen Claymore's Claymore Claymore in action and it seemed to sail pretty well - no doubt his crew, or the great man himself, will add their comments. There's at least one Marcon Claymore for sale at the moment.
I can see a lot of attractions in a motorsailer for extended cruising in the Med - space, shade and comfort being three.
chrisc
Well-Known Member
motor sailer is about right for the Med .sailing is very rare there and motor sailer of draught of about 1.5 is perfect for canals down there. you must have an outside steering position and as much cockpit area as possible, you will be spending a lot more time living outside than in UK .
Rob_Webb
Well-Known Member
Actually in today's world I question the whole definition of a motor sailor. I don't think there is really such a distinction any more, as the advent of larger auxilaries combined with sturdy semi-rigid sprayhoods or pilothouses leads to convergence of designs. You can now have a capable sailing boat and when you start the engine you get the kind of motoring ability that used to be the preserve of only motor-sailors - nowadays most of them will be be left behind when motoring into a strong wind as they present topsides and wheelhouses with aerodynamics of a brick whilst their sleeker counterparts slice through wind and waves with much less drama. And you can tuck up under the sprayhood, driving the boat from relative shelter, referrirng to your colour chartplotter and autohelm with very little need to step out into the elements, if it really is that bad!
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Most people think of heavy displacement hulls and fully enclosed wheelhouses when the term 'motor sailer' is used. If however you think in terms of a sailing boat with more than just an auxiliary engine, you have a much wider choice. Motor sailers aren't just Colvic Watsons or Fishers. You don't have to sacrifice performance and sailing ability. For example, we have had 17 knots under sail and 11 under power.
Think wider!
And on the subject of building, think in terms of 2-3 years dedication of all your evenings and weekends, double that if you want a showroom finish. It can be done (we've done it twice) but it's never as easy as the designers would have you believe.
Think wider!
And on the subject of building, think in terms of 2-3 years dedication of all your evenings and weekends, double that if you want a showroom finish. It can be done (we've done it twice) but it's never as easy as the designers would have you believe.
FrancisRutter
Well-Known Member
I have sailed all my life and used to be very happy out in the cold and wet. As I got into my 70s I found that I could not cope with spray on my glasses especially at night time, and also felt the cold much more keenly. I therefore moved over to a motor sailor and never regretted it. Last year I came back to Lowestoft from Ijmuiden in force 5 gusting 6 with a lot of spray, doing 7 knots and keeping warm and dry in the wheelhouse.
Read Colin Jones in PBO and his use of Abemama. The nauticat is a fine boat, but the Coaster 33 almost as good and £100,000 less. I have just moved to a Fisher 25 as being more a size that I can handle on my own nowadays.
If you want to go on the inland waterways, make sure that you can get the masts down and stow them on deck without too much hassle.
Read Colin Jones in PBO and his use of Abemama. The nauticat is a fine boat, but the Coaster 33 almost as good and £100,000 less. I have just moved to a Fisher 25 as being more a size that I can handle on my own nowadays.
If you want to go on the inland waterways, make sure that you can get the masts down and stow them on deck without too much hassle.
ex-Gladys
Well-Known Member
I agree. All crusing yachts these days are motor sailers..... How many do you see flogging up hill? most of them under iron topsail
Talbot
Well-Known Member
I reckon my catamaran is really a motor sailer, cause I need the engine for any really decent progress to windward. a lot of the older UK designs are fine for use in the French canals (Prout made their Snowgoose elite as the maximum width possible for acceptance within the canals!) Most cats draw significantly less than 1m and are also blessed with significant deck space!
jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
The motor sailer concept as it was understood in the sixties and seventies is, in today's market place, dead. All, or nearly all cruising yachts have big engines and effective rigs.
These days the words motor sailer conjure up a niche market boat with a chunky hull with a wheelhouse and a second steering position - Fishers and Nauticats for example.
To be honest these are not the sort of boats I would recommend for Mediterranean sailing. Here you have to contend with heat, a fierce sun, extremes of calm and sudden squalls and often very deep anchorages.
For this you want a big open cockpit (probably protected by a bimini top) and with easy access over or through the transom, airy, well ventilated interior, an easily handled, but quite large sail plan and a big bow roller backed up by a powerful and reliable winch.
Generally speaking most of today's production cruisers are designed with this market in mind and do the job well with a bit of additional kit. I woukld suggest this route, choosing a model with a shoal draught keel to cope with the canals.
As a catamaran owner myself I would like to be able to suggest one of these, but, except for some older, narrow-beam designs, and Darren Newton's latest, which is designed specifically for the Eruopean canal network, I think you will find the width a bit of a handful.
These days the words motor sailer conjure up a niche market boat with a chunky hull with a wheelhouse and a second steering position - Fishers and Nauticats for example.
To be honest these are not the sort of boats I would recommend for Mediterranean sailing. Here you have to contend with heat, a fierce sun, extremes of calm and sudden squalls and often very deep anchorages.
For this you want a big open cockpit (probably protected by a bimini top) and with easy access over or through the transom, airy, well ventilated interior, an easily handled, but quite large sail plan and a big bow roller backed up by a powerful and reliable winch.
Generally speaking most of today's production cruisers are designed with this market in mind and do the job well with a bit of additional kit. I woukld suggest this route, choosing a model with a shoal draught keel to cope with the canals.
As a catamaran owner myself I would like to be able to suggest one of these, but, except for some older, narrow-beam designs, and Darren Newton's latest, which is designed specifically for the Eruopean canal network, I think you will find the width a bit of a handful.
Wansworth
Well-Known Member
To some extent it depends if you intend to spend out of season in the Med,A nice wheelhouse means you can sit up reading a book and watch the port/anchourage activity.The wheel huose ill need at least one opening forward facing window.On small m/s the wheelhuse tends to chop up the available accomodation.
castaway
Well-Known Member
Take a look at my link below to see a big tough old go anywhere motorsailer.
I would never have thought of buying such a boat 5 years back at the age of 47 but what the hell? It was so nice and I have no reason to regret my descision.
Certainly for sailing in the UK it adds at least a month to each end of the season, and with the big rig I can hold of most pure sailers except really hard on the wind. With the Perkins quietly doing its bit you can keep up good passage times and arrive at the other end in great shape.
I would tend to only look at boats that are built to sail, some M/sailers really are too far off the end of the scale and IMHO would be rather unsatisfying.
Re building: Ive done this and its a huge commitment, considerably more than you can ever think, and sure to cost way more than a 2nd hand boat. Unless you are the sort of guy with no other commitments, a wife who is also commited to being totally involved, and have also worked in projects such as ..maybe built your own extensions/kit cars/built a dinghy in your garage etc,etc ...I would,nt bother!
Good luck, If you want further info on the Halberdier give me a call, I run a little Internet group that covers the Halb world wide and keeps us all chatting!
Regds Nick
I would never have thought of buying such a boat 5 years back at the age of 47 but what the hell? It was so nice and I have no reason to regret my descision.
Certainly for sailing in the UK it adds at least a month to each end of the season, and with the big rig I can hold of most pure sailers except really hard on the wind. With the Perkins quietly doing its bit you can keep up good passage times and arrive at the other end in great shape.
I would tend to only look at boats that are built to sail, some M/sailers really are too far off the end of the scale and IMHO would be rather unsatisfying.
Re building: Ive done this and its a huge commitment, considerably more than you can ever think, and sure to cost way more than a 2nd hand boat. Unless you are the sort of guy with no other commitments, a wife who is also commited to being totally involved, and have also worked in projects such as ..maybe built your own extensions/kit cars/built a dinghy in your garage etc,etc ...I would,nt bother!
Good luck, If you want further info on the Halberdier give me a call, I run a little Internet group that covers the Halb world wide and keeps us all chatting!
Regds Nick
chubby
Well-Known Member
I take the points about all boats being motorsailors these days and the compromises and don`t have expeience of the med climate but have had a motorsailoer ( Barbary Ketch) for 14 years. It can sail well except dead to windward but I see many boats that should sail well motoring upwind with their sail covers on! It looks after you well in rough weather, the Wheelhouse is semi enclosed with a cover and gives another cabin with excellent views in harbour. My daughter has done a biscay crossing in a Jenneau and says she would much prefer our heavy motorsailor! If you follow Colin Jone`s writings they are good for voyaging but I wouldn`t take one for a gentle evenings sail if you want to get far!
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
Not really sure if a "Motor Sailor" is what you want, just because it is "for the Med" doesn't always narrow things down too much - sort of like saying "I want a boat for the UK".
How much (ballpark) is your boat buying budget?
How much a year are you going to be aboard her? (ie Liveabord or just holidays?)
How many people?
Do you want to SAIL around the Med far and wide or restrict yourselves to exploring a certain area?
FWIW although "MotorSailor" covers a lot of boats (as already said) no reason why one should not be suitable (but I AM biased!)..........Most of my sailing is not actually going anywhere and I am not someone who WANTS to go as fast as possible in a sailing boat. (For that I would buy a Mobo.......or a motorbike!)
However when I DO go somewhere I like a heavy lump of boat beneath me and a Large Perkins capable of pointing me in the right direction whatever the wind and sea state.............without HAVING to do all that "zig zagging" around /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The term "idiot proof" has been mention, although I prefer "Landrover" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
PS I DO like the Moody...........but a bit big for my use.
How much (ballpark) is your boat buying budget?
How much a year are you going to be aboard her? (ie Liveabord or just holidays?)
How many people?
Do you want to SAIL around the Med far and wide or restrict yourselves to exploring a certain area?
FWIW although "MotorSailor" covers a lot of boats (as already said) no reason why one should not be suitable (but I AM biased!)..........Most of my sailing is not actually going anywhere and I am not someone who WANTS to go as fast as possible in a sailing boat. (For that I would buy a Mobo.......or a motorbike!)
However when I DO go somewhere I like a heavy lump of boat beneath me and a Large Perkins capable of pointing me in the right direction whatever the wind and sea state.............without HAVING to do all that "zig zagging" around /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The term "idiot proof" has been mention, although I prefer "Landrover" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
PS I DO like the Moody...........but a bit big for my use.
G
Guest
Guest
The term Motor-Sailer is generally wooly now ....
I have a Motor-Sailer ... why is it called that ? It has a big engine and is heavy build. But it looks like a solid sail-boat.
Centaurs / Colvics - all get called MS's at times ... right or wrong ...
For general cruising and getting a to b ......... yes they are good bets ... a true (if there is such a thing !) will take you through most weather, arrive reasonably dry, will motor through most tides etc. and be more roomy than other boats similar size and age ... not I said AGE .... Volume inside boats changed dramatically over the last couple of decades with AWB's etc. - so the old consideration that a MS had more room is now not so true.
Best ? Take a few days and wander around the yards ... check out all different sorts and types of boats - even those you would not have imagined or thought of ... get a feel for all the different styles and configurations ...
Then its chat to as many owners and people you can ... narrow it down till you start to see a pattern in the list ... that is when you really start to know what boat you are looking for ...
I have a Motor-Sailer ... why is it called that ? It has a big engine and is heavy build. But it looks like a solid sail-boat.
Centaurs / Colvics - all get called MS's at times ... right or wrong ...
For general cruising and getting a to b ......... yes they are good bets ... a true (if there is such a thing !) will take you through most weather, arrive reasonably dry, will motor through most tides etc. and be more roomy than other boats similar size and age ... not I said AGE .... Volume inside boats changed dramatically over the last couple of decades with AWB's etc. - so the old consideration that a MS had more room is now not so true.
Best ? Take a few days and wander around the yards ... check out all different sorts and types of boats - even those you would not have imagined or thought of ... get a feel for all the different styles and configurations ...
Then its chat to as many owners and people you can ... narrow it down till you start to see a pattern in the list ... that is when you really start to know what boat you are looking for ...