On the Loo again

[saltwater_gypsy]

Firstly I apologise for raising this subject <u>yet again</u> !
I've searched the internet but I cannot find details of the chemical reaction between Uric acid (Pee) and Salt water which results in the build up of solids in the loo plumbing.

The best I can come up with is Sodium Carbonate which is like washing soda and is soluble in water. I was told that the deposit is actually Calcite (Calcium Carbonate) which is like Marble but where does the Calcium come from?.

Can a Chemist out there give a good answer so that I can think about preventative measures rather than emergency measures. Thanks

 

[damo]

Plenty of calcium in seawater.

VicS is the man for this.....

 

[piperdog]

a cup of white vinegar once a week in the bowl and then pumped out keeps the discharge hose clean

Single Malt

 

[capnsensible]

Doesn't on our boat /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[vyv_cox]

Looking at this page it appears that almost every element is in it! Not a lot of calcium compared with sodium, of course, but still a fair amount. I have always understood that the deposits are calcium carbonate. Dosing with HCl produces a vigorous reaction, generated hydrogen billowing out of the skin fittings.

 

[capnsensible]

There is a product available in Spain called 'Agua Fuerte', literally, water, strong. It is some kind of dilute acid, believe it has been mentioned here before.
A couple of weeks ago, I used lashings of it to clean the rudders, props and trim tabs on a large mototboat, it was magic. I believe that a lot of sea creatures that do cling on are calcium based, so it disolved them easily.
I get to my point!! I have been wondering how well this stuff will fare in preventative maintenence in yacht heads. Therefore, this weeks experiment will be to get some and try it. I have a lodsa spares for the Lavac so I am happy to give it a go and report back. Will also find out exactly what it is unless someone here already knows.

 

[Perry]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a product available in Spain called 'Agua Fuerte', literally, water, strong. It is some kind of dilute acid, believe it has been mentioned here before.
A couple of weeks ago, I used lashings of it to clean the rudders, props and trim tabs on a large mototboat, it was magic. I believe that a lot of sea creatures that do cling on are calcium based, so it disolved them easily.
I get to my point!! I have been wondering how well this stuff will fare in preventative maintenence in yacht heads. Therefore, this weeks experiment will be to get some and try it. I have a lodsa spares for the Lavac so I am happy to give it a go and report back. Will also find out exactly what it is unless someone here already knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

USES

Limpiador sin rivales de las superficies en los cuartos de baño, tales como las lozas de los sanitarios, y los suelos de gres o duros. Cleaner unrivaled of surfaces in the bathrooms, such as lozas of health, and soil stoneware or hard. Para la limpieza de vidrios, porcelanas esmaltadas, bañeras, lavabos, cerámica, etc., las superficies NO son atacadas, y en cambio el producto es tan corrosivo que se come materialmente toda la suciedad y las oxidaciones. For cleaning glass, porcelain enamel, bathtubs, sinks, ceramic, etc.., The surfaces are NOT attacked, but instead the product is so corrosive that eats materially any dirt and oxidation. En la industria y talleres, se emplea principalmente para el decapado de los metales, para quitar el óxido de los hierros, para soldar en fontanería. In the industry and workshops, is mostly used for pickling of metals, to remove the oxide of iron, welding in plumbing. En las piscinas se utiliza para equilibrar el ph del agua. In the pits is used to balance the pH of water. En los laboratorios tiene su uso para análisis químicos, limpieza de los utensilios de laboratorio. In the laboratories have use for chemical analysis, cleaning tools laboratory. Para manchas de cemento o muros rústicos, contra el musgo que se crea en sus juntas. For stains or cement walls rustic, moss against that created by their boards.

MODO DE EMPLEO DIRECTIONS FOR USE

Dependiendo de la suciedad, emplear directamente sobre la superficie a tratar, sobre todo aparatos sanitarios, o bien diluir en agua, principalmente para los suelos. Depending on the dirt, use directly on the surface to be treated, especially sanitary ware, or diluted in water, primarily for soil.



PRESENTACION PRESENTATION

Botella cilíndrica negra de 500 ml., en polietileno de alta densidad (PEHD). Black cylindrical bottle of 500 ml. In high density polyethylene (PEHD). Con serigrafía a dos colores en tinta ecológica de UV Con tapón dosificador de bisagra. With a two-color screen printing ink ecological UV With stopper dispenser hinge.

COMPOSICION MEMBERSHIP

Acido clorhídrico al 24%. Hydrochloric acid 24%.

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
VicS is the man

[/ QUOTE ] Not my field! at least the uric acid and the urine isn't.

I believe there is only a smallish concentration of uric acid in human urine (I have a vague idea it's different in males and females for some reason) but I would expect its calcium salt to be insoluble. More significant I think is urea.

There is, as said, plenty of calcium in seawater and even more magnesium which for most purposes you can lump in with it

See Kaye and Laby online section 3.1.3 for a full list of abundances of elements in seawater, crystalline rocks, meteorites etc.

However what is important is the temporary hardness, bicarbonates of calcium and magnesium if you like, because what happens in your loo is that bacteria get to work on urea in the urine releasing ammonia which raises the pH and leads to the soluble bicarbonates forming insoluble carbonates. Hence the carbonate scale.

 

[damo]

"See Kaye and Laby online section 3.1.3 for a full list of abundances of elements in seawater, crystalline rocks, meteorites etc.

However what is important is the temporary hardness, bicarbonates of calcium and magnesium if you like, because what happens in your loo is that bacteria get to work on urea in the urine releasing ammonia which raises the pH and leads to the soluble bicarbonates forming insoluble carbonates. Hence the carbonate scale. "

See - that's exactly what I know you are good at /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jrt]

When you've had a pee you should give it 10 pumps for every metre of discharge pipe length. Don't leave it lieing in the pipe. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[damo]

How very dare you!

So that would be about, erm, 2 pumps for me /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Thanks so far.
I know about the wonder of Aqua Fuerte, lots of pumping etc but I'm after some real chemistry.
From Vyv Cox'sand Vic's lead on seawater I find that at 3.5% salinity, seawater has approx. 1.1% Sodium,0.13%Magnesium, 0.04%Potassiumand 0.04% Calcium(not a lot of calcium).
This means that the dominant compounds in the loo pipe are Sodium compounds which should be soluble (eg Sodium Carbonate). Perhaps the bacterial action is critical.
There must be a <span style="color:red"> CHEMIST </span> out there!!!!!!

 

[damo]

OOps, a lakesailor and an insult all in the same post /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Don't be too rough with him Vic /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[damo]

Sodium compounds may well dominate, but from the vast amount of calc carb deposited in the oceans (reefs, oolitic sands, calcareous muds etc) it is easy to see there is a lot about.

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
There must be a CHEMIST out there!

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep there is lots of sodium but as practically all of its compounds are soluble it just whizzes through.

The significant facts are the concentrations of calcium ( & magnesium) and bicarbonate ions. Once the pH is raised the bicarbonate becomes carbonate and since calcium carbonate is insoluble the calcium ions link hands with the carbonate ions and deposit themselves as calcium carbonate scale!

(in scientific terms once the concentration of calcium ions multiplied by the concentration of carbonate ions exceeds the solubility product (qv) for calcium carbonate it is precipitated.)

Sorry if I am not acceptable as a chemist. I'll resign my Membership of the Royal Society of Chemistry!

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be too rough with him Vic

[/ QUOTE ] I'll see if I can enrol him into my daughter's class.

<span style="color:white"> ............................................ </span> She teaches chemistry ?

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Literacy (amongst all the other things) to 5 year olds! She's a primary school teacher.

<span style="color:white"> ....................................................................... </span> /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[damo]

So you can still react OK then! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Thanks Vic. That sounds like the business, and earlier you said it wasn't your field!
What I am angling at is the possibility of chucking some chemical tablet down the loo each time or having a dispenser like they use in some urinals, which would automatically reduce the scaling effect.
What's wrong with Damo anyway??

 

[dockmaster]

3 off us lived for 3 years sharing the same toilet we put a drop of cooking oil down once a week ish when it started getting a bit hard to flush used normal paper and only once had a problem when a wet wipe had been used why do you all get problems?????

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

High quality urine....... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously.... we don't seem to have a problem either.... I suspect, as suggested above,that its extensive pumping of the loo that helps.....