OK It's Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

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OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

According to Rumour my marina, is charging £1.20 per litre from now on. Presumably with the 60/40 taken into account. May be true, maybe not. Anyhow. Is there any reason why I cant buy 60% from Asda and 40% from the marina at red price, or red from some other place as ASDA dont sell red and cant give you a discount, also if I get a tanker down, I dont really want red with a discount, I want 60% white diesel, then 40% red. Now if I go to my local garage, he sells red and white and has no means to charge more for red. So I would have to buy 60% white off him and 40% white. But do I need to buy it all at the same time.

So the point is, most marinas in any area, seem to be in a cartel, Like just before November it was about 90p here for red, whist other places nearer 70p.

Yes I am aware of the paper work problems, but not sure how it's going to be tracked, especially as some times Debs buys the fuel and some times I do. Yes I've got the form from the marina, saying 60/40 all year, but if ASDA/Tesco is much cheaper, it's going to stand out a mile now, but a bit blurred before.

This is not an arguement about beating the 60/40 rule, or trying to get round it. It's an arguement about free enterprise and paying a fair price, be it red or white.
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

It was about 90p per litre 3 weeks ago when we filled up and an additional 30p sounds likely so I can well believe £1.20. As far as I'm aware the cheapest diesel locally is at Port Dinorwic although it's not that far out from everyone else. If Conwy are charging more for diesel under a 60/40 split than you can buy from the supermarket at full tax then I suspect people will vote with their feet (propellers?) and get fuel elsewhere. They're probably trying to recoup some of the cost overrun on the gate 'project'.
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

So OK once youve bought some fuel from Tesco, you are entitled to some for none propulsion, in my case this week, 100%, we aint been any where. But Tesco dont sell it. I just want my fuel at the best price I can get it. Within the law.
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

IMO, if you can find someone who'll sell you low duty red, then how can it be illegal to buy 60% from the garage at full duty and add 40% red, it's just the same as you'd get from the marina. You'd need to keep good records to show that's what you'd done.

Sounds to me though you need a co-operative to get a tanker in every now and again, maybe it would encourage the marina fuel seller to stop ripping you off.
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

Nope, I've regularly used tankers, the tankers not problem. The problem is, marinas wont let them there. So it's about finding a place where both the boat and tanker can get to. Fishing harbours like Newlyn work well. But loads of places like Brixham have a cartel. The marina buys fuel from the fishing harbour. The fishing harbour wont sell fuel to private boats, unless it's winter, when the marina dont sell it. But even before regulations, added extra tax because private and not fishing, not sure this was legal or not. Tankers are sat waiting for you at many ports, or you can phone them, there normally quite happy to deliver 300 or more litres, maybe less if all ready there. Which comes to the other question,Lets say I fill up with red at a tanker. Then fill up again with another tanker and get white, work it out over the year, so best as I can, I get a 60/40 split. Is that ok.

The problem I see, is that in any cruising area, there are only 4 0r 5 water bourn fuel outlets, less than that some places, so huge differences in prices area to area. 50% more in some cases.

The 60/40 split is going to highlight the huge proffits marinas have been making on fuel, when the 60% is tested against Tesco. Dont get me wrong, I'm still trying to work out how I get 100/200 gallons to the boat, disregarding the marina. Maybe Tesco on line. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

I think you're 100% correct HLB. If you bought 60% white and 40% red, at approx the same time, and kept the receipts, I'm absolutley sure HMRC couldn't get you. Even if they tried, which I doubt they would once they had understood what you'd done, they would back down fairly soon or loose. And I say that having spent much of my professional life arguing (and ultmately agreeing :-) ) with them for a living

Cant the fuel depot tankers supply white as well as red? In which case buy 40/60 with two tanker deliveries, or one lorry with a split tank?

Overall, brilliant idea. Completely legal. Free enterprise. Hope you can do it.
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

As we all know the biggest problem is finding somewhere that will allow a road tanker on site to fill you up/ You really need to be based somewhere convenient for the CIs, St Sampson in particular where delivery by road is encouraged /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

There is no point in getting white and red from a tanker. If you buy all red you will get a better price and then do the 60/40 split. Red should always be cheaper than white from the wholesaler even with the added tax as there is the VAT advantage.
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

You are quite right sir it has been done to death,get over it,pay what you have to&enjoy the boat,life is to short, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif regards m m 1.
 
You raise a good point

I'm sure that one of the considerations made by HMRC was to "engineer" a split such that the fuel would be available from one's usual sources at a price that left the marinas (or whatever) with their normal profit but at the same time being cheaper than you getting supplies in cans from Tesco.

Where you have greedy suppliers and or what is in effect a price fixing cartel, then the scheme has problems.

Before 1st. November it was "legal" for a tanker to supply you with what is essentially heating oil. Since then if a RDCO is supplying fuel to boats, then he MUST register that fact with HMRC, and keep the appropriate records. That's not particularly onerous, indeed it leaves him with funds which he doesn't have to pay over for a year!!

However, the company - which I suspect probably only supplies heating oil(s) may - because of fear of the HMRC compliance officers - decide that it's not worth the candle and cease to supply you.

That's the real sticking point, not all the other "fiddles" that are proposed - even thought they are squeaky clean.

HMRC can't be bothered to set up special considerations to deal with our British sense of fair play, it's some crap that's been dumped on them from BXL and they want rid of the complications. Understandable.

There's no way (provision for-) you - as an individual buying heating oil at rebated rate, and then declaring your percentage subsequently, and paying over the difference. HMRC are definitely not interested in your "local" problems. Tough Titty.

So, either persuade your local tanker to supply YOU with heating oil and he risks losing his license, and you possibly a penalty - not the object of your exercise,

OR - more sensibly persuade him to register for the Boat malarkey, and you both can continue squeaky clean.

The upside is that IF you can generate extra business for that supplier to make his paperwork worthwhile, not only you and your friends will benefit, it may bring the "profiteering marina slags" to heal and keep prices low.

The problem comes in getting enough boat owners to band together; to my mind more of an issue than cracking the coming recession....
 
Re: You raise a good point

Think you miss my point, though I understand all oil depots might not be registered for boats. Though this just makes the problem worse.

All boats are not in marinas and many have no access to a marine supplier. Theres another post about a yacht club with the same problem,there oil co is not registered. Think it may be on the lounge, maybe here??

The problem is the same, whether having a smallish boat up a creak or a bigger fuel guzzeling boat in an over expencive marina. Or a big boat cruising round some area with no marinas or marine registered tankers.

The question is quite simple. To remain within the law, is it ok to buy 60% white from say Tesco and 40% from your local farmer friendly garage where red is obtainable. Or some red and some white out of a tanker.

If it's bought in cans, as many folk will have always had to do, no supplier will have a clue what it's being used for.
 
Re: You raise a good point

What is this 60/40 "rule". As I understand it you declare your intended % usage be 0% propulsion or 50% or 80% or whatever.

See HRMC Web Site and in particular the sections on RCDO's and Purchasers' responsibilities.

In reality Mobos should declare 90% or 95% propulsion if they were being honest /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
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Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
 
Re: You raise a good point

more to the point, imho, is the fact that, why should we have to pay a premium for bug infested red, when white ulsd is available for less? my take on the whole thing is, it was an easy option for the government to get out of doing the right thing for their employers, US!

nothin' new there then! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

currently white ulsd in my area is 109ppl full duty and VAT inclusive, and as I understand it, 120ppl for red in some marinas, it's not brain surgery to work out what's the better deal!
 
Re: You raise a good point

There is nothing to stop you buying a few gallons of red for your heating/domestic use and running your engines on white. Fit an auxiliary tank for your domestic "red" and there should not be any problem. You will then pay full rate for your propulsion fuel and rebated rates for domestic fuel.
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hammer.gif
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
 
Re: You raise a good point

As it's the winter, if you're going to be spending time on the boat but not going anywhere then you could claim a larger % for heating than the standard 60%....
Fuel suppliers don't get any of the extra duty being added to fuel for propulsion so they're not making any more money than they were before, they're just doing extra admin for the government.
The answer is to sail a yacht and get free wind power!
 
Re: You raise a good point

You're missing the point though. There is in effect an amnesty upfront. Declare 60/40 and HMRC will be content. There are parallels to this in many other areas of tax law. Ie a strict rule then a slightly official arrangement saying "if you do this you will not be chased by hmrc even if strictly speaking you are paying too little tax". So 60-40 is, for practical purposes, a "rule".
 
Re: You raise a good point

[ QUOTE ]
The question is quite simple. To remain within the law, is it ok to buy 60% white from say Tesco and 40% from your local farmer friendly garage where red is obtainable. Or some red and some white out of a tanker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, definitely. Keep documents etc as evidence, but the answer is still "yes"
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

[ QUOTE ]
According to Rumour my marina, is charging £1.20 per litre from now on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you mean that your marina refuses to supply you with 100% heating fuel i.e it just assumes that you use 60% for your engines ?
 
Re: OK It\'s Been Done To Death, Dont See Red.

I thought the £1.20p sounded heavy. MDL down here are charging 90p with discount for bertholders and I would suspect Premier to be similar, possibly 2-5p less.

At this time of year most of us are 99% on heating use but over the year the 60:40 split will work out pretty fair for those of us that boat year round.

If you think back to the 'Gludy' posts, it could have been a lot worse! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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