Oil analysis

[ChromeDome]

While preparing for the oil analysis of my two boat engines (I'm waiting to get the boat launched so I can run them properly before taking tests) and two cars (which will be tested in time to save a few ££ on combined postage to the test lab "over there"), I fished around for some information, preferably better than various religious sermons.

I found little, but when I received the test kits from the lab it included a link to their podcasts where they share knowledge.

So when bored at home, in the car or perhaps onboard, I suggest the Slick Talk podcasts by Blackstone laboratories.

Enjoyable and educational, IMO

Slick Talk

 

[vyv_cox]

I have been quite involved in oil analysis in the past. I have yet to watch any videos but the main points on the subject are:
A single sample tells you little. TBN and water content may be useful but not very much else.
Trend analysis on multiple samples is the way to use the technique but samples should be taken at the known oil life for comparison.

I did a job on three engines used to power all the ATMs for a major Dutch bank. Oil analysis showed nothing wrong but one engine ran its big-ends. My investigation showed the sampling had been done in a very haphazard way without reference to the time of oil changes. The technique needs very systematic procedures and record keeping. In this case the bearings were corroded by a very high oil acid number but poor sampling procedures missed it.

 

[ChromeDome]

Being a data driven nerd my sampling will be documented - all the way.

Apart from setting a baseline to get a sampling program started, the first analysis will be interesting - esp. if something is way out of averages.

 

[William_H]

I think SOAP (spectrographic oil anlysis program) oil analysis for private boat and car is OTT. Waste of money. SOAPis most useful on long running engines and gear boxes where failure can be expensive or catastrophic. (helicopters) The idea is to determine metal in the oil as an indication of unusual or rapid wear which might precipitate failure.
The amount of metal is typically large at beginning of cycle of new bearings etc. This settles down to small amount of metal until near end of life metal appears again. Of course this progression of test results must be related to oil change times when new oil is installed. So quite tricky on internal combustion engines where oil change is more frequent than say gear box.
Interesting another technology sometimes used on large helicopters is to fit a microphone to gearbox casing. The sound of the gearbox in operation is recorded and analysed by computer. A normal sound spectrum is established. Any variation from normal is cause for concern. (excess wear or impending failure) All good stuff but way beyond private boat/car needs. ol'will

 

[penfold]

Why are you using a US lab? There are loads of oil analysis labs in the UK, the postage must be murderous.

Interesting another technology sometimes used on large helicopters is to fit a microphone to gearbox casing. The sound of the gearbox in operation is recorded and analysed by computer. A normal sound spectrum is established. Any variation from normal is cause for concern. (excess wear or impending failure) All good stuff but way beyond private boat/car needs. ol'will

We get vibration surveys regularly, although given the nature of our work I've concluded that it's a bit pointless having it done periodically and continuous monitoring like aircraft get would make a lot more sense, by the time a survey picks up big changes the machinery has often been run beyond the point of wrecking itself.

 

[ChromeDome]

I am not their representative, seller or otherwise associated.

Blackstone was chosen after a wide search on the web, the first idea being to use Finning in Leeds (Caterpillar dealer), but their website is not very helpful.
There are some workshops that sell Finning's sample kits, but don't stock them and clearly disclaim any responsibility for analysis or support with interpretation of reports. They just sell the kit.

The boat is in the EU so their office in Ireland seemed obvious - they don't do fluid analysis though.

There are companies in Germany too, but their prices are not attractive.

In the US, oil analysis is more common and Blackstone has been in business for 38 years, with a huge collection of analyses in archive, used to make averages and comparisons for all sorts of engines. Their websites are very informative

Their prices are low and a standard analysis covers many areas. The reports are detailed and come with narratives in plain English and in addition you can call or write them for further discussion.
(report samples)

The sample kit arrived by courier, free of charge, each standard analysis and report costs $35. It costs £16 to send my 4 samples, with signature on delivery.

By the way, analysis of used oil from aircrafts is their main business.

 

[Halo]

I used oil analysis when managing a large fleet of open cast mining equipment- dump trucks draglines dozers etc. It was really good at spotting failures in air inlet filtration but after 2 years we stopped using the system as the costs were not justified.
If your boat engines are less than enormous it’s hard to see how regular sampling would be worthwhile. Better to spend the money on frequent oil changes I M h o

 

[ChromeDome]

As stated it is $35 per sample which I think is fair.

Time will show if I find it worth the cost, but I'm looking forward to the first reports.

Regular reports showing a good trend may help the a sale, one day. The state of engines is always a concern when looking at used boats.

I've never skipped an oil & filter change on any engine - from my fleet of trucks to the lawn mower.
Actually a bit anal about it.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

What will you actually do with the analysis results?

If it's good, fine, that's great. But if it's not then how do you use them?

In industrial machinery or aircraft it would condemn the part but you won't do that with a boat engine will you?

Actually, I guess it depends on the boat, if it's a mobo crossing the Atlantic then I guess you might.

 

[ChromeDome]

The engines are a couple of 175 hp Nanni's in a mobo.

I do not consider the possible scenarios, I need to see the reports to decide if or what to do, but for now it's about determining the immediate status of the engines and the oil & filters.

As you say, if everything is fine there is reason to continue as before.

The lab report has a number of points and there may be recommendations on oil change intervals for example.
There may also be indications where due diligence can counter expensive repairs.

Time will tell.

 

[ChromeDome]

Just wanted to follow up on the analysis of the two engines.

Reports are detailed as mentioned in earlier post (20 particle measurements (PPM) and 8 properties stated)

And the narrative:

Port: The good news is, they look alike in testing, and that's exactly what we like to see for twin engines, since they see the
same care and operating conditions. Metals are testing at good levels and in a typical balance for a marine
diesel, so internal parts appear to be wearing well. There's no contamination to mention (like fuel, coolant,
or excess dirt), and the TBN is very strong.

Starboard: Looks a lot like what we found for the port side. As we mentioned in the other report, that's a good sign that both engines are wearing normally. The flashpoint is high enough to show no measurable fuel dilution, and low potassium/sodium tells us coolant
contamination isn't a concern. Insolubles at 0.1% are evidence of effective oil filtration, and the TBN of 10.6
shows a very strong supply of active additives remaining.
Nice results!

 

[Daverw]

As stated it is $35 per sample which I think is fair.

Time will show if I find it worth the cost, but I'm looking forward to the first reports.

Regular reports showing a good trend may help the a sale, one day. The state of engines is always a concern when looking at used boats.

I've never skipped an oil & filter change on any engine - from my fleet of trucks to the lawn mower.
Actually a bit anal about it.

That’s expensive, at work we use a lab in i think in Bristol £15 each with full specto report, we do sampling every two months on large refrigeration compressor, oil change and major works depending on trend results, also add we never take notice of what the lab actually recommend, look at the data and make own judgement, the lab is normally only a lab and don’t know enough about actual engine and application to advise

 

[Refueler]

Put generally ...

Single spot analysis only tells you if something HAS happened .... does not give reliable result to base future on.

Deliberate - scheduled repeated analysis leads to TREND and that can be useful.

As to our boaty engines ?? Regular oil / filter changes ... keen ear for change of sound etc.

 

[ChromeDome]

Ears have been important in this respect since my first moped in 1968.

As for the boat (and cars), trend building has just started.

Meaningful? To me, yes. And the part about knowing what has happened (=current state of things) is as important as going to your doctor for blood testing.
So to speak.

 

[reeac]

Glad to hear of someone else who’s anal about oil changes. I got rather worried about the acetal polymer timing chain tensioners on my much loved Jag. XJ8 as there were stories about them cracking, leaking and consequent jumping of timing chains. Bought the superior new metal ones and got local garage to swap them. The old ones (19 years) were absolutely as new and all the valve gear was spotless … probably as the car had an annual oil change despite an annual mileage of only a few thousand during my 16 years of ownership ( about 100,000 total miles).

 

[ChromeDome]

To me, it was actually also to find my own standpoint on oil, filters, changes, time vs. usage, service done pre- or post-winter on the hard etc.

A great deal of clarification came from the Blackstone guys and was confirmed by my reports.

One observation when talking to the US guys is the big interest in extending intervals to save on oil and filters. In my book there is so little money in that, I'd rather continue on a too-early change regime than take a chance.

 

[Daverw]

That’s one of our main drivers, extending oil and filter change intervals, these are often defined by manufacturers as every two years, at £10k per time for each compressor, coukd be 4 or more. Using CBM regimen can be extended to over 7 years, savings are significan. You do need the data though.
for the costs we are looking at on our engines, £40/50 of oil and filters and a couple of hours a year or two, not sure I’d bother

 

[ChromeDome]

That’s one of our main drivers, extending oil and filter change intervals, these are often defined by manufacturers as every two years, at £10k per time for each compressor, coukd be 4 or more. Using CBM regimen can be extended to over 7 years, savings are significan. You do need the data though.
for the costs we are looking at on our engines, £40/50 of oil and filters and a couple of hours a year or two, not sure I’d bother

It is indeed a business case.
My cost (2x 7½ liter 10W40 marine oil + 2x known brand filters) is £75 for both engines. Takes 10-15 minutes each so no big deal.