Officious jobsworthy from the MCA - our ensign

[Daedelus]

Just to further confuse the issue I've re-read the RYA booklet on flag etiquette.

Red (or other) ensign should be worn on a staff at the stern.

"Private mourning
If the owner of a yacht dies, the Colours and burgee should be half masted when the information is received and at sunset hauled down for the last time.

.................

Ensigns and burgees should never be hoisted direct to or lowered from the half mast position. When being hoisted, they should first be hauled close up and then, after a pause of a few seconds, lowered to the dip position..." [and the reverse to lower them.

Fascinating huh?

When jobsworth came along you should just have burst into tears, said it was private mourning, and got him to remove his hat as a mark of respect.

While on the subject I note that we should salute all warships - I tend to not to as they are meant to salute back and the average minesweeper going up the Solent would need a mechanical devise to keep up, while the carriers wouldn't even see you. One wonders if saluting the Borders Agency & MCA and then a stuffy note objecting to them not saluting back might be fun. Probably better to imagine than to bother.

 

[Crabman]

Love it. There is one way to pass your time dip your ensign all day in Portsmouth. That should get a response.

 

[Kukri]

My day job involves running ships under the Red Ensign, so I see a lot of the MCA. Their staff are shockingly badly paid and they have not enjoyed the leadership of their present boss who is a yachtsman with no merchant ship or fishing background. I have no complaints about the professionalism of the people that I deal with; mind you, we were very carefully "pointed at" one particular Marine Office by the Registrar.

 

[bbg]

but for all the huffing and puffing on this forum I reckon 95% of the members would do absolutely nothing in response to your experience. Because doing anything wouldnt achive anything anyway.

I agree 100%. Although I gave some advice on what to do - if one were inclined to do it - I am pretty sure I wouldn't do anything myself. And I certainly wouldn't mention details of the other inspection. The most you might say is that he gave the impression that this issue of etiquette was more important than his real job of coding a commercial boat. You really don't want to deal with the ferry operator when Mr Jobsworth comes back, and is so annoyed that he runs over the boat again with a fine-tooth comb. And all thanks to you.

It has been a long time since I've read von Clausewitz' "On War", but there are some lessons in there that can be a useful template for life. Among other things, he give such advice as: Choose the time and place of battle. Only fight battles you are going to win. Only choose to fight battles that are important to win. Some other gems but I'd have to go back and look them up.

Good luck, whatever you do. I'm going sailing this weekend. Just got a call that my outboard is buggered, so I'll have to sail in and out of the marina. Joy. And my red ensign will be where it always is - tucked safely inside, out of the rain.

 

[Crabman]

.

When jobsworth came along you should just have burst into tears, said it was private mourning, and got him to remove his hat as a mark of respect.

That is Funny LOL

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... While on the subject I note that we should salute all warships - I tend to not to as they are meant to salute back and the average minesweeper going up the Solent would need a mechanical devise to keep up, while the carriers wouldn't even see you......

Some important Royal Navy person of Senior Rank responded to a letter in either PBO or YM stating that yachts should salute because his men are supposed to be on look out at all times and therefore should notice these things.

I think there was a bit of a kerfuffle because an ex important and retired Royal Navy person of Senior Rank complained that he wasn't being saluted anymore when out sailing.

My kids love it when we have the opportunity to salute, it always ends in tears though after the fight for dipping honours.

 

[timbartlett]

Not sure what TimBartlett has to do with this thread, as he hasn't posted in it.

Nor me, but now that you come to mention it...

If we all let little things go, then bigger things will creep in and we'll start turning a blind eye to those as well....So if we all fight a little battle, the war will start to swing our way. And we have no right to bitch about stuff if we then don't do anything to try and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Exactly so.

Come on, I'm 19, you're supposed to be doing this stuff to ensure my generation doesn't have to go through it all!

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I'm afraid it is "my generation" that has created the problem. All I can do is apologise for the sorry mess we are handing on to your lot, and keep on doing my little bit to slow the damage before it becomes irreversible.

 

[emnick]

Jobsworth

I was under the impression that only a court could fine you! hence you get a fix penalty for offences that do not go to court.

 

[binch]

Sorry, half mast is half-way up. What you describe is known as "at the dip"

 

[Woodlouse]

Half mast is lowering the flag a single flag width from the top of it's hoist.

Dipping the flag entails lowering the flag down 2/3rds of it's hoist, waiting for the other vessel to lower and rehoist their flag, then rehoisting your own.


I do quite enjoy dipping the ensign to the RN. They rarely expect it and usually you get to see a midshipman scramble out from the bridge to respond. You need to be in fairly close proximity though, otherwise they probably ain't looking at you and you'll just be left hanging. Overtaking, or passing in narrow channels are best.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Just how do you dip the ensign when its on a bit of wood all of 3 ft long?

 

[dt4134]

... have not enjoyed the leadership of their present boss who is a yachtsman with no merchant ship or fishing background.

From the interview I saw not long after he got the job I didn't get the impression he was that experienced a yachtsman.

 

[stormeagle]

I seem to remember that one dips to warships "at sea" in their own waters. I think the narrow seas of the Solent would not qualify.
When cruising, I have dipped to French, Greek and Turkish warships, and they have always smartly returned the salute.
As you might expect in matters of courtesy and etiquette, the US navy never, as a matter of policy, return dips.
Incidentally, regarding the original post, I look back nostalgically fifty years to my last lie-in with a nineteen year old female. Fond memories of post prostrate and pre prostate.

 

[awol]

Just how do you dip the ensign when its on a bit of wood all of 3 ft long?

Lift the stick out of its holder and hold horizontally until warship responds or until you get bored.

 

[pmyatt]

Hello all

I was just having a little lie-in when my partner James, who works at the marina we live in, came down to wake me up and inform me that a man from the MCA, who is coding a small passenger ferry in the berth next to us, walked all the way up to the marina office to ask him who the owners of Milestone were. Expecting a compliment, as usually happens in such situations, James said it was us. The officious jobsworthy told him that we must take our ensign down immediately as we are flying it incorrectly; it should only be flown at 'half-mast' if there is a royal death or some other thing of equal importance.

Our ensign is a fair chunk of the way up the backstay, with a little halyard cleat attached to the backstay so we can take it down at night. This is a very similar setup to a lot of small yachts. We chose to move it there, as opposed to the flag pole on the transom, so it doesn't attack the helm's face when sailing. We put it at this height as it is a vaguely similar height to where a gaff would be on a gaff rigged boat, and you're supposed to fly an ensign from your gaff.

James took our ensign down in the MCA man's presence, but I am going to go and put it back where we want it.

I don't even care if he's technically correct; I wouldn't have minded so much had the officious man come and suggest we fly it somewhere else, and explained why, or asked why we fly it where we do. But to walk up to the marina office and specifically ask who the owners are, then demand that it is removed immediately - err, I think not.

Does he have nothing better to do?

Has he ever actually been out in the Solent on a summer's day? That would certainly keep him busy.

Rant over, I'm off to raise our ensign. And I think we have an inflatable banana somewhere, I might put that up too.

jelly

Next time, tell him/her to go forth and multiply - the only official who has the authority to take you to task concerning an ensign is a serving officer of HM Forces, as a representative of the Crown - from whom all ensign authority originates. MCA / Customs / Club Officials / Harbourmasters etc., etc., may only advise you (politely) - but have no authority - except in the case of a Club Official who may (?) have the authority to withdraw your privilege of wearing a special/defaced ensign.

 

[Alfie168]

Aw cripes,,,the civilised way of dealing with this is to invite the bloke down for a sail on a nice day and have a few beers when you get back. You might even find he is human.

Tim

 

[Dave_Seager]

Half Mast

Sorry, half mast is half-way up. What you describe is known as "at the dip"

As Woodlouse has said, a flag is at half mast when there is space for another flag above it. I think that it is intended to represent the invisible flag of Death flying above the actual flag.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

MOB for coding??

I'm curious.

Why did the MCA chap need the ferry guys to do a MOB exercise at all (full speed, ops normal, or whatever)?? Maybe ferries work to a different code of practice than the small commercial vessels and workboat codes that I'm more familiar with - but those don't require the boat to go to sea at all. The coding inspections I've been involved with are only about the boat's stability and the safety equipment and procedures.

Anyone shed any light?

 

[Pete7]

Jelly, the number I have in my mobile is for Mark Clark at the MCA. You sometimes see him on the tele as the MCA spokesman. Good guy, he as helped out a few times on Ribnet and last time put an IOW Council back in their box when they got carried away over commerical qualifications for coded boats. Worth giving him a ring, 02380 329327 if you want to chat to someone at the MCA.

Pete

 

[Lakesailor]

This thread reminds me of so many YBW Forum threads. Half the posters can't be arsed, half quote chapter and verse and the other half can't add up.

I work with Shiny buttons who all think a safety Boat Certificate or a Single Pitch Award makes them Lord of the Admiralty or Chris Bonnington.
They also delight in making up "rules" all day long.