Official numbers

[Gil Marshall]

I've spotted an abandoned yacht which I'm interested in. I'm trying to find out as much as I can about it as the brokers dealing with the sale are not being helpful. On a brass plate in the saloon is a six figure 'official number' and a 'registered tonnage'. Paperwork strewn about refers to the vessel as British registered. Would this number suggest that it had Part 1 registration, and if so, could this be reissued in my name if the sale goes ahead?

 

[jwilson]

Yes - probably Part I. Where are you and this yacht? If you are in the UK contact the Registry on 02039-085200 or email uksr@mcga.gov.uk and ask if it still registered, though with an abandoned boat the registration has probably not been renewed for a long time. After a time it then automatically gets de-registered. If still registered it is possible to re-register in your name after purchase as long as you have a properly executed Bill of Sale.

 

[Gil Marshall]

Thanks, that's very helpful, I'll give them a ring. The added complexity is that the boat was abandoned in Greece, probably around 12 years ago. The brokers are handling the sale for the marina, so presumably all legit, hopefully.

 

[Gil Marshall]

Just called the MCA and indeed the vessel was registered but has now lapsed. And it could potentially be reactivated, although the five years of ownership details is tricky. Perhaps a letter from the marina saying its been lying there for a decade? Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Tranona]

That won't be enough. They will need to see Bills of Sale. When you say "abandoned" do you mean that the owner has disappeared. If that is the case then you are buying a boat with effectively no title as the title will be with the last known owner, unless somebody else like the marina has gained the title legally for example through a court order. If this is the case then you will get a Bill of Sale legally transferring title to you and then you can start the registration process, which will probably be a new registration .

First thing, though is to find out who legally owns the boat. I would guess that the broker is seemingly unhelpful because he does not have this information. If there is no evidence of title then unwise to buy the boat!

 

[Gil Marshall]

Thanks Tranona, it does sound like a can of worms. Paperwork strewn around lists the owners as a limited company in Jersey which was wound up in 2010. The brokers claim they are the owners and that they will provide a bill of sale, but they've not yet offered to show me any documentation. I wouldn't bother battling with them, but this is a Anne Weaver classic, if only the legal side can be sorted out.

 

[Tranona]

Then even more important for them to demonstrate how they acquired title. Don't be fobbed off with something like "we took it in lieu of yard charges" - this must be backed up with a legal document either from a court or the previous owner. If you are buying a boat in Greece it will now be deemed EU VAT paid so will be subject to UK VAT (and more importantly perhaps Certification) if brought back to UK if you are a UK resident. You will need to think very carefully about registration as you may find you cannot use Part 3 (SSR) and I suspect Part 1 will require a tonnage survey. You will need registration wherever you keep the boat or take it if you leave Greece.

 

[Gil Marshall]

Well, according to the marina they gained title during court proceedings. Apparently they have many to choose from in the same situation, so it's looking more promising. Why the brokers couldn't spell that out in the beginning is the mystery.
The VAT is another issue but the purchase price is fairly reasonable. One issue I'm also wondering about is whether on the return to the UK, VAT would be charged on added value, or just the original Euro purchase price.
The old brass plate with the 'official number' has the tonnage recorded, perhaps the MCA would accept that, wishful thinking perhaps. But all in all I can't see too many more pitfalls.

 

[jwilson]

Well, according to the marina they gained title during court proceedings. Apparently they have many to choose from in the same situation, so it's looking more promising. Why the brokers couldn't spell that out in the beginning is the mystery.
The VAT is another issue but the purchase price is fairly reasonable. One issue I'm also wondering about is whether on the return to the UK, VAT would be charged on added value, or just the original Euro purchase price.
The old brass plate with the 'official number' has the tonnage recorded, perhaps the MCA would accept that, wishful thinking perhaps. But all in all I can't see too many more pitfalls.

The MCA might just accept the old plate figure, but more likely you would probably have to have a new "tonnage survey" which is a tape measure exercise - nothing to do with weight, then apply for registration with last 5 years Bills of Sale. However if you are aiming to bring the boat back to the UK there are several snags. Registration is actually the least of the issues - you can always register with minimal cost on the SSR as long as you have a UK address.

VAT: on return to the UK you will definitely have to pay VAT. If the boat was very recently purchased this may be charged at the price you paid, but if there is much delay, this is suspiciously low, or you have done a lot of refit work then HMRC will probably want a surveyors valuation of actual value.

UKCA: This is the UK equivalent of the old EU RCD system. The latest status (and it just might change) is that the boat would need a "post-construction assessment" to give it a UKCA certificate, without which it should not be used in the UK and cannot be legally sold there. See UK Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (RCR) – HPi-CEproof Ltd.

 

[Tranona]

Just to add a bit to this. The VAT rules specifically refer to the value of work done after purchase (and equally to loss in value for use after purchase) to try and arrive at a value on entry. Also if the boat comes back by road they could also include the transport cost in the value and charge VAT on this. A surveyor/valuer experienced in working with HMRC would be an asset to negotiate on your behalf.

With regard to the UKCA there is talk that the exemption for pre 1997 EEA built boats may return which would avoid the need for certification. However these are uncertain times and it would be sensible to clarify all this before committing to buying the boat. You do not want to spend on getting the boat to a level where you can get it to the UK only to find you can't legally use it. This situation is a re-run of 1997 when certification came in which effectively killed private imports (mainly from the US) of used boats. Then the EEA built exemption was a godsend for some, but without that I fear the boat you are looking at would be in the same category - difficult or impossible to comply and VAT to pay so impossible to import into the UK.

 

[Gil Marshall]

Perhaps the boat has certification, I have no idea. Would there be paperwork and a stamp somewhere? This was a vessel which spent most of its life in the UK and took its final journey to the Eastern Med in around 2010. Would this certification issue not apply to all boats of a certain age built in EU then? Baffling, perhaps best to berth it in Ireland.

 

[Tranona]

No. I assume the boat was built before 1997 when the RCD was introduced, and no there would have been no certification. As things stand now it will need a "post construction assessment" that will require design data from which to calculate stability (or empirical testing), details of other design features and equipment, including the engine, to show that it meets current standards. Not only is this process expensive (£5-8k) but an old boat is unlikely to meet the standards. As I said earlier up to end 2020 EEA built boats were exempt from this when coming in from outside the EU/UK on the principle of no retrospective rules, but as of now it seems that the UK authorities in setting up their own standards (which are in fact currently the same as the EU) have chosen not to include this exemption.

This is all very new and does not come into effect until later this year so as John suggests it may change, but you need to be aware of what the rules could be to avoid buying a boat that you cannot use in the UK.

 

[Gil Marshall]

Thanks Tranona, it was built in Holland in 1979. What about UK boats heading off to be based in the EU, the same thing? Thanks for your patience in explaining this.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks Tranona, it was built in Holland in 1979. What about UK boats heading off to be based in the EU, the same thing? Thanks for your patience in explaining this.

The distinction is between whether the boat is "visiting" or being imported. If you are a UK resident then you can take a UK VAT paid boat into the EU under the Temporary Importation rules which means it can stay there for nominally 18 months, although this can be renewed by leaving the EU and re-entering. In this way a non EU resident can own a VAT free (or UK VAT paid) boat in the EU effectively forever - as many Swiss for example have done for years. The opposite also applies for an EU resident with an EU VAT paid boat wantin to visit or keep a boat in the UK although the number likely to use this is small. A UK resident can own an EU VAT paid boat (as you would if you bought this boat) and it would be free to move around, and be sold anywhere in the EU without any VAT being payable. However if you brought it to the UK you would not be able to use Temporary Import and VAT (plus under the current rules) certification would apply on entry.

The effect of Brexit is to create two different markets and tax regimes where there was previously only one (single market) so movement of boats from one to the other are considered chargeable events for VAT purposes unless a relief applies, of which the most common is TI as explained above. There is also Returned Goods Relief which allows boats that were exported from the UK to return under the same ownership without paying VAT. This used to be time limited as it was intended for short term voyaging, but is now open ended. So the previous owner of the boat that you are looking at could in theory, if it started is passage to Greece from the UK bring it back VAT and certification free. Once the boat changes hands outside the UK (as it will if you buy it) this relief is no longer available.

In a way under the current rules it does not matter where the boat was built, nor even where VAT was originally paid - and remember that in 1979, many of the states that became part of the EU single market did not have VAT (although the UK did) so the original VAT status would be based on where it was in 1992 when the common VAT regime started. That boat would be "deemed VAT paid" because of its age. However, the withdrawal agreement set a new qualifying date or 31/12/2020 and VAT status depends on where the boat was on that date, which in this case makes it an EU VAT paid boat.

You don't say what your plans are for the boat. If you intend keeping it in the EU then you have no problems, and if you are resident in the UK then you can register it on the SSR. However your usage will be limited by the Schengen visitor rules of 90/180. If your intention is to bring it back to the UK then all the previous discussions on the barriers applies. However once you have successfully imported the boat you are free to sell it in the UK and can visit the EU under the TI rules. The other thing you need to consider is the cost and practicality of getting the boat to the UK. A boat that has sat there unused for years will likely need an enormous amount of work to get it into a condition such that it can be sailed back. Sailing back is a mammoth and expensive job, even in delivery mode (voice of experience here even in a relatively new boat in tip top condition!) as you are going the "wrong way" against the prevailing wind and ocean currents. Road transport from Greece is nigh impossible, so the boat will have to be sailed at least to Slovenia or by ship (£14k from my last quote).

I guess what I am saying is that unless you want to keep it in Greece as a plaything it seems a non starter. This is no different from the situation that exists in Central America where there are many boats that are (or were) considered desirable when taken out of the US then abandoned when the owners ran out of cash/interest/grew too old etc but are too far gone /impractical/uneconomic etc to be worth saving by keen admirers. Portugal Spain and Greece is home to many such originally UK based boats that are destined to rot away because they can't find buyers.

Sorry to sound so negative, but this is the reality.

 

[Gil Marshall]

Well the plan was to restore and sail for a few years, and then to return it to the UK. But from what you say it seems that keeping it in the EU permanently would be the best option. On the other hand I don't want this to end up a costly albatross, time for some thought. Thanks again Tranona.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

The distinction is between whether the boat is "visiting" or being imported. If you are a UK resident then you can take a UK VAT paid boat into the EU under the Temporary Importation rules ...

Just a quick adjustment for anyone searching guvmint websites for this - in official parlance it's called Temporary Admission (TA), not Temporary Importation (TI).

 

[Tranona]

Yes, you are right - stuck in the past when it was called TI.

 

[Gavin]

Hi All, as a follow up question has anybody had experience of certifying an imported vessel to be RCR compliant? In particular, what's the likely cost (accepting that this question is a bit like a piece of string)?

 

[Bouba]

drag the boat out to sea..and claim that you salvaged her

 

[dgadee]

There are actually 3 regimes - EU, GB and NI. My reading (some, perhaps many, disagree) is that you could move a boat to NI, base it there for a period and then move it to GB.