Newbie: first boat buyer needing help, Part 2

The instructor and YM friend both said they prefer tiller as you can "feel" the movement and on a balanced boat it's more inclined to keep the course if left for a short period.

I suppose I need to try tiller - I liked the wheel, but it's all I know at the moment.
 
it depends on the boat. A couple of summers ago when sailing from Portsmouth to Cowes on a 40fter we set the boat up, got on course and once in the groove and nicely balanced didnt touch the wheel for ten minutes. (no we didnt have the autohelm on)
 
Nothing wrong with a tiller, even Day Melon has one (or more). Also much easier to arrange self steering. Modern tiller pilots are not a 'mare'. As to tillers taking up more cockpit space; yes when being used, no when parked coz they hinge up out of the way, whereas a wheel is where a wheel is permanently, and is very definitely in the way when parked.
 
You seem to be going about it the right way. If you can ask the question then you can accept the advice. I am sure there are many forumites who will be more than willing to visit the boats you select, also a way to meet sailing type blokes with a bit of knowledge. Dont forget to sort out a mooring first, not cheap on teh South Coast and perhaps join a Yacht Club (Down to earth type clubs are invaluable in help and experience). Hope this helps.
 
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Where I'm getting stuck is that when I go to physically view a boat I'm not really sure what I'm looking for to tell me that this is the one - I'm feeling that my viewing is too passive cos I don't know (have the confidence?) what needs probing to dig a little deeper...

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We were in your position 3 years ago (smaller boat, and less money, though! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif) I am emphatically not an expert.

First, there's the "head" bit - the things that'll cost big chunks of money are the engine, spars (mast, boom, etc), rigging, sails & hull.

On boats of the vintage you're looking at, it's likely that sails & rigging are reaching the end of their useful life - most insurers insist that standing rigging is renewed at fixed intervals (10 - 15 years seems common). Someone else can give you a likely cost for this, but my guess would be £2-3k to get it done on a 30'er. So, ask when the standing rigging was replaced. Insist on proof of it (i.e. invoices). Budget for replacement otherwise (or you may not be able to get insurance).

Have a quick look at the running rigging (ropes & stuff) does it look like newish rope, or are there chafed bits, mildew, etc.

You probably can't do more than ask how old the sails are. I would (again) guess at £2-3k to replace - however if you have 10 yr old sails, use them to learn with, but budget for replacement as you become more experienced (you may well want to spend more on better sails by then). Super duper mylar laminate jobs aren't the best to learn with (IMHO).

Have a quick look at the spars - any dings or dents, or signs of corrosion or repairs? I'd be inclined to walk away if there had been major repairs - Others opinions are available /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Engines are difficult to judge - Personally, I am wary of recently repaired / overhauled / refurbished. To me this is a -ve. I would much prefer a engine that looks like it has been left alone, apart from regular oil changes, etc. or brand new - worth asking for servicing records, but I don't know what you'll get. I presume that some of the boats you're looking at have a "sail drive" (leg sticking out of hull with the propeller on it). If so, ask when the "sail drive gaitor" was last changed (& get proof) - I think these need to be changed every 7(?) years.

It is very difficult to test an engine properly unless the boat is afloat, and even then all you can be sure of is that it actually works on the day.

As to the hull, the killer word is "osmosis". Ask if it has ever been treated for it, and/or whether the hull has been epoxy coated (to protect against it). In either case, ask about who did it, and expect to see documentary evidence of the work & guarantees. If the hull has blisters on it, it will cost you, either to treat, or in difficulty selling in the future. This is a hot topic, a search (on this forum or web) will throw up many discussions, and a few facts, too! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Have a look around the boat - does it appear to have been looked after: Has it been allowed to sit damp, with the internal fittings covered in rust/verdigris/mildew? How many missing bolts or pins can you see? How many un-filled dings or cigarette burns are there in the GRP?

Identify in detail what is included in the sale. If it covers a life-raft, check how old it is - they have a limited life, and are worthless if they have reached it (unless you happen to need one urgently, of course!)

I echo other advice not to spend all your budget on the boat - ~20% of our expenditure went on kitting out & getting the boat back in the water - remember you will have surveyor's fees to pay, possibly road transport, cranage into the water (or out of the water for survey if the boat is already afloat), insurance, as well as any critical work identified by the survey (to satisfy your insurers).

A project may well be OK, but any work will take time to complete, which can be extremely frustrating if this is in the hands of others. Look at as many boats as you can before settling for a project.

Just remember that brokers don't work for the buyer or the seller - they work for themselves, so make 'em earn their keep. We left our details & requirements with half a dozen different brokers, and never had a single call, despite eminently suitable boats appearing on their web-sites. You need to be pro-active. Get down there and look at a dozen boats, even ones which you know you wouldn't buy. Check out the classifieds on the internet to get a feel for what's available.


Then there's the heart bit /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Does it feel right? Does you get excited looking around it (her?).


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I just don't want to make an expensive mistake.

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Stick to well-cared for, popular boats (as recommended here), don't offer the asking price, and get a survey.

To paraphrase two other bits of advice given on this forum in the past which have rung true:

Your first boat will not turn out to be your ideal boat, but you will have a much better idea in a couple of years.

Don't modify anything in the first season - sail the boat a bit first.


Andy

Since I'm a slow typer, you've probably got these answers from others already!
 
A few years ago I set the sails and locked the wheel and the Westerly Falcon steered itself for an entire watch, 00:00 'til 04:00 - 25 miles across the Western Approaches towards Ushant while I mainly watched the bioluminescence.

My Fulmar regularly looks after itself for miles on end with a loop of cord over the tiller (don't posess an Autopilot), most likely to drop out of the groove if I go too far forward.

You don't need a full keel for that kind of stability, but a 'generous' one attached to a well designed hull with well balanced rig can be very rewarding to sail.

I confess to being a bit of a Brit. fan, so Westerly and Sadler made great boats, though not quite fulfilling your cabin requirements. For that you need a French / German charter special.
 
Hi Chris
I may become persona non grata to every broker and boatbuilder on the South Coast but:
DON'T BUY A BOAT. Yet.
Sail with friends, join a club (some clubs OWN boats for use by members), go on courses, go on flotillas, charter .. whatever you like. You will learn about sailing and you will come to realise what sort of boat you want.
Also in my experience, there are likely to be more skippers (some of them are quite decent people) with boats wanting crew, than there are enthusiastic (and decent, and who will buy the skipper beer/food) potential crew.
Also, if you do buy a boat, remember that a big boat is not necessarily better than a small one, it depends on what you want to do with it. Also that the larger one will have MUCH greater running costs. And that costs may be less if the boat can take ground easily.
I might suggest the smaller (UK) Hunter boats but I'm biased ...
And have a word with Challenge Business (Chay Blyth's outfit) or similar organisation.
 
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Not BIL - brother of a mate. He's given me a list a make/model - which I've stuck with to date. He's a busy person

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Have you thought of engaging instructor as a consultant? Draw up short list of boats, visit with instructor, decide, let instructor lead you in haggling? The couple of man-days you would have to pay for would probably be more than offset by getting the right boat at the right price. It's what i would do in your position, I wouldn't be spending your budget from a position of ignorance.

FWIW

Steve
 
You seem tp be going about things in a good way. Remember it IS your money being spent, not the brokers (he does only want his commission) - so do not be shy about asking questions (even the "dumb" ones) or taking your time. Taking along someone else, even if they do not know a lot about boats either is useful for just talking things over and perhaps being less likley to be subject of bullsh't from a broker.

I can sympathise with not "having the look" of someone who can spend a few quid!! Amazing how many salesmen go only on first impressions. But. if they have a boat I am interested in I do not let it worry me, after all the "advice" offered can only be RELIED upon as much as that recieved in Dixons (even of some Brokers are more knowledgeable / helpful than others) - it is up to YOU to be happy with your purchase.


I would suggest that you make a list of questions!! and also as you may well find that the Brokers details are not as full (or correct!) as you would like so when visiting a vessel you may want t make your own notes of what's on her / of things to query later / price up AND also take lots of photos (THANK YOU Mr Digital Camera!)- it is amaxing what you forget and can easily get mixed up with which boat had what on her (of course this could just be me!).

As you do seem to have a good idea of what boat would work for you, maybe try and charter one or try and tap up someone with teh same model for a day out, and an honest chat about her plusses and minuses.
 
I was considering posting along the same lines as I read down the thread then came across yours. From the sounds of it he hasn't got very much experience of dinghy or yacht sailing and like many thinks that the first steps into sailing are achieved by buying a boat. I would agree he should go sailing on other peoples boats before he buys, especially as he wants speed which I presume means he wants to sail rather than buy a floating caravan and motor everywhere.
On another note, I have seen boats that seemed well cared for, but turned out to be disasters. Brokers do see a lot of dreamers, so one needs to build up a relationship, impress on them that you are really serious, and keep an open mind rather than look for a particular model. You may find something you had never considered which is a superb buy.
 
Chris,
You can ask as many probing questions as you like but I doubt you'll get any sort of a sensible answer. The reason being that your average broker does not give a toss about what he is selling. The state of any boat you are interested in is entirely up to you to find out by using your own eyes and employing a surveyor. Imagine you are buying a house. Would you ask the estate agent about things like the state of the roof or whether it has a damp proof course? You'd employ a surveyor to do that. Likewise with boats.
 
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I would suggest that you make a list of questions!! and also as you may well find that the Brokers details are not as full (or correct!) as you would like so when visiting a vessel you may want t make your own notes of what's on her / of things to query later / price up AND also take lots of photos

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Another good idea - cheers.... my question list is being cribbed from here.... didn't think to take photos - I will be now. Ta.
 
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You can ask as many probing questions as you like but I doubt you'll get any sort of a sensible answer. The reason being that your average broker does not give a toss about what he is selling. The state of any boat you are interested in is entirely up to you to find out by using your own eyes and employing a surveyor. Imagine you are buying a house. Would you ask the estate agent about things like the state of the roof or whether it has a damp proof course? You'd employ a surveyor to do that. Likewise with boats.

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Yep - correct... However, I'm not relying on the broker to give me the gospel truth - but I generally find that if I can talk the talk with a salesman they will drop the sales gloss quicker.... it also helps with the haggling.

I totally plan on getting a survey done - I just don't want to get one done on every boat I look at!
 
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...From the sounds of it he hasn't got very much experience of dinghy or yacht sailing and like many thinks that the first steps into sailing are achieved by buying a boat.

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Fear not! It was hard graft to earn the pennies I'll be spending so I'm going in with my eyes open.... the reality is that it's proving rather tricky to pin any boats down.... as posted elsewhere I'm lucky enough to not be working this year - the free time I'm currently wasting is a major push to just getting a boat and getting on with it.... I've already done the dreaming over the last 5 or 6 years when work = 0 free time....

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I would agree he should go sailing on other peoples boats before he buys

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Anyone need crew in the Brighton / Eastbourne area? I'm generally free 24/7....
 
Glad to hear it.....just thought you shouldn't be asking questions like should you have a wheel or tiller ... experience would have told you which you prefer, and again it also depends on the boat it's attached to. I know there are naturals who just get in and go, sadly I was never one, but I spent 10 years sailing dinghies before I bought my first boat, and crewed on much larger ones too. Of course it also depends on where you intend to keep it.....the Thames Estuary has proved daunting to may south coast sailors until they become familiar with it.
 
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