New yacht, new season anxieties

[jonjo]

I am about to become Master & Commander of a furling jib and saildrive for the first time in my yachting career.

To whet my appetite I decided to read through the fouled stern gear forum here at Scuttlebutt and this has got me thinking about the rope cutter I neglected to fit on my newly launched yacht.

Will a saildrive with a 3 blade folding prop be less likely to foul?

And now onto the furling jib… my foresail is a 420 sq ft beast on a facnor furler.

My experience of furling jibs is limited to a 1 week sunsail holiday. I have visions that the moment I expose 10 sq ft of sail, the furling line will rip the skin off my hand, blocks will melt as the genoa unfurls itself at speed and then as the sail comes to a thumping halt at max size, the shock wave sent through the furling drum will result in ball bearings scattering over the foredeck.

Could anyone offer some furling jib handling advice?

At present I have one cockpit coaming winch each side and a jammer for the furling line.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Couldn't comment on the saildrive.

Regarding the genoa furling line the cleat for ours is beside the secondary winch on the cockpit coaming on that side of the boat. When neccesary we take half a turn around the cleat or a turn around the winch to stop it being pulled through our hands. The furling line cannot be held otherwise in heavier conditions.

That being said, our genoa is larger than yours (around 575 sq.ft on a 40 foot boat) and we regularly use it off the wind in up to 40 knots before we change down to our inner heavy weather foresail. Also, it is just my wife and me and she has not the strength to assist with sheets or furling line unless in moderate conditions. Even if the sail is not drawing, in heavier conditions the shockloads back through the furling line from the "cracking" of the sail are enough to make it hard to hold.

In very heavy conditions, we find that we need the secondary winch to furl the genoa unless we round well up or else let it fly completely. We are always careful not to strain anything though when winching. Rounding up to take all the weight out of the sail may not always be an easy option, especially if sailing off the wind without a main, if the seas are heavy and we are normally reluctant to let it fly competely as we find there is a real chance that the sheets whipping around will foul on something (in our case, most frequently, the forward mooring bollard which has a cross bar through it - not likely to be found on a Bav35, but maybe cleats, etc) and then need a trip to the foredeck to clear them.

As I normally take a turn around the cleat or winch out of habit I cannot recall accurately at what wind speed it becomes mandatory, but is probably around 15 -20 knots, obviously depending on how much sail is currently unfurled and how much weight you can or are prepared to let out of the sail.

All that with a Facnor furler. On our Facnor furler we have taken the furling line through a ss guide loop welded onto the outside of the big loops that surround the drum. That to give a better lead to the first block on the deck and also to better control the line going onto and off the drum.

Hope that is some help.

John

 

[tom52]

I would recommend the Ambassador Stripper for a Saildrive.

I cannot think of any reason why the saildrive would be significantly less vulnerable that shaft drive prop. The advantage of no whirling shaft being offset by the saildrive prop being totally unprotected by any nearby skeg or rudder.

Certainly my saildrive showed evidence of an encounter with some kind of wire hawser when I came out of the water this year.

I was unaware of this potential disaster because my stripper had seen off the problem. Fitting the stripper has been one of my better decisions.

 

[davidwf]

Used Facnor furlers on last three boats, last one just sold, had a Genoa around the size of yours. Never really found any problems letting the sail out whatever the wind strength. Line always seemed light enough to hold. Mind you if you just let go it will go with a bang.

Reefing back in just ease the genoa hallyard slightly to save the bearings and make life easier, then let the sail fly at first and gradually bring more tension into it with the sheet as you get to the last few rolls to get it tightly furled away.

If you have to use a winch then somethings wrong !! I have never used a winch on a properly set up furler, it'll either be that the sails not flying free and has too much wind in it, the lines snagged somewhere or you've got too much tension in the genoa halyard. If you use a winch you'll break something.

As for strippers, mine chomped through something last year, evidence was some blue strands left in the teeth, never felt anything so I'm a fan of strippers.

 

[Ships_Cat]

I think it might depend on the conditions you sail in, crew strength and the size of the sail?

In very heavy conditions, which are what I specifically referred to, the winch (if self tailing) keeps the line under complete control all of the time, but again as I specifically stated, you must be careful not to strain anything.

It also means that if necessary, especially if short handed (which is the case I specifically gave) it allows you to instantly drop the furling line to tend to anything else that arises needing attention. A jammer will allow the same, but in my opinion is not ideal on a furling line, especially when short handed, as it only allows a direct pull in a limited number of directions.

So I think there are valid cases for using a winch and your blind dismissal of using one is just that - blind - or else assuming of a strong crew or a little sail.

I would also suggest that going forward to ease the halyard (unless taken back to the cockpit) is counter to the advantages of furling/reefing. A common problem is that genoa halyards are winched up too tight in the first place, but otherwise should not be an issue when furling.

John

 

[jonjo]

Thanks John,

It sounds as though an aft mooring cleat will be sufficient to break the unfurling force on my size of sail.

In some ways it is reassuring to hear there are no hard and fast rules about furling a genoa at sea, sounds like it is just a case of using common sense with a mixture of spilling, heading up but not too much flogging.

The absence of secondary winches will be a handicap in the sort term. I expect to sail singlehanded at times so I plan to mount some oversized secondary winches on stainless steel plinths. I hope it will be possible to arrange the geometry of this setup so that the secondary pair can double up as foresail winches in reach of a singlehanded helm. Until then I expect to be reaching around for the autotack button on the autopilot, genoa sheets in hand.

 

[jonjo]

Re:
Halyard tension

Halyard tension! I had not considered this in respect to furling. I was aware that it was good practice to ease off the halyard before going home but not as an aid to furling. This probably explains why my first test furl in harbour with 5 knots of headwind on the 260 sq ft heavy jib took a major two handed tug to get the first roll in.

 

[davidwf]

Firstly try not to be so sensitive, I was expressing my opinion not attacking you. Too often on these forums people are flamed just because they don't totally agree with others, the purpose of a forum is that people can give advice and the person asking for it can weigh up all the different views and make a decision for themselves.

I accept that if you've a lightweight crew or are in really heavy weather you may need to use the winch at least to get it going at first. My furling line passed back through a spinlock clutch on the sidedeck so it was possible to let go at any time assuming you left the clutch in the half open position. The line passed through the clutch before being turned back towards the cockpit so you could pull in any direction you liked.

The Genoa hallyard was also led bak to the cockpit so I could tension the sail and also release it without going forward. As I suspect the Bavaria Match's is also, as its a racing boat.

 

[TigaWave]

Interesting reading the posts, but if your kind of new to furlers, then having some tension in th eline as it unfurls allows the furling line to run neatly and tight on the drum, if its too loose and then the wind gets up and you need to roll up thats when they can jam as the rope wedges itself between the loose coils. I would always unroll with the furling line on a winch with some wind in the sail as a flogging sail just wrecks the sail and fittings. This way there is then some load on the furling line so you get neat tight coild on the drum.
Saildrives do catch debris, but I've heard less stories of serious damage with saildrives than with P brackets. I had one instance where the debris jammed the folding gears on the prop, so when I arrived at a berth with some speed as it was windy, went for the reverse....prop folds as it comes to a stop ...then as I give it some reverse it refuses to open....the marinare watching just put it down to bad parking as I used his launch as a fender.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Shaving rope stripper

I noticed at H4marine you sell a rope stripper based on a shaving action, can this design be fitted to a sail drive leg?

 

[brianhumber]

Re: No Winching

Its an absolute rule on Ronhilda NEVER to winch the furling geny in or winch hoist the main except tensioning the last foot. If you have to winch something is caught.

As others have said, ALWAYS take a turn around a winch when letting the wind unfurl, or you will loose your palm skin - painful.

Ronhilda's biggest geny is a lot lot bigger than yours and I manage husband and wife as well as when I have loads of crew.

Suggestions
Have a selection of genys and put the one most suited to predicted wind conditions on at the start of trip.
Work out how you will put your storm jib up without taking the furler off and practice this before you need it.

 

[Guest]

What make of saildrive, please?

I have had problems due to ignorant installation

 

[Sailfree]

If there are enough crew I prefer to sweat the genoa reefing line but after a couple of seasons the spinlock stanchion eyes became brittle with UV light and break! Like others I prefer not to winch halyards and lines as you can lose the feel if they are caught or something - but sometimes it is necessary - the force needed increases rapidly with larger sails.

There was one case reported in Yachting monthly where they freed off the genoa sheets to much in heavy weather to reef but the genoa got a wrap around the forestay and they couldn't free it. From memory it was in a gale and Cherburg lifeboat got involved.

If shorthanded and I need to reef I find that alternately freeing off the sheet in small amounts and then winching in the some of the reefing line results in a neatly reefed genoa and in a controled manner.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Volvo 2030 19hp engine.

Guess it will be Volvo standard sail drive.

 

[Ships_Cat]

I think your comment is very relevant regarding getting a wrap of the genoa around the forestay in heavier winds if it is allowed to be let fly. We have, in those conditions, a number of times gotten ourselves into the situation of having to unfurl part of the sail again as the genoa has false rolled on the foil though being let fly.

Another has commented on the forces increasing rapidly with wind strength and sail size - for wind it increases as the square of the velocity and if one has a boat that is capable of carrying sail in heavy conditions (ie good form stability and strong rig) then the forces quickly become very high.

An aspect that also influences furling ease is if the genoa is foam luffed or not. At the start of furling the foam luff tending to stand out at right angles to the foil gives the wind forces on the sail increased leverage over the furling drum and also introduces an imbalance when the foil rotates (as the sail furled on the foil builds up this imbalance reduces). This can sometimes mean that quite a hard tug is required to get the furler turning even in light conditions and may be the problem that Jonjo faced in getting the first roll in - as may having too much halyard tension, as follows.

I do not overtension genoa luffs so cannot comment too much from experience but my feeling is that if the luff is overtensioned it has a similar effect to foam in that the tight cloth up the luff presents a lever arm over the furling drum until a few turns are on and the furled sail becomes round on the foil. My view would be that if one finds that one has to loosen the genoa halyard in order to furl the sail then one has the halyard too tight or there is some other problem. To have to loosen the halyard is contra to one of the intents of a furler ie to keep you off the foredeck (they are meant to do this without having to have the halyard taken back to the cockpit).

John

 

[nicho]

Jonjo,

I've got the Ambassador rope cutter fitted to the saildrive on my Bav 36 - though it has the standard, not folding prop. Is it any good?? Don't know, but I've certainly never had a rope round it - at least if I have, it's done it's job!!

 

[TigaWave]

Re: Shaving rope stripper

It wont fit saildrives yet....probably another 6-9 months, we have one for an outboard leg, we'd use a similar arrangement for a saildrive leg. There are picture s of the outboard cutter on the web site gallery.
One thing to watch out for if you have an older Volvo leg and folding propeller, the pivot pins for the blades were only held in by Stainless grub screws......they can loosen and allow the blades to come off. Put epoxy resin on the threads and drill a small dent in the pin for the screw to locate in, it saves loosing blades!

 

[jonjo]

Re: No foam luff

[ QUOTE ]
An aspect that also influences furling ease is if the genoa is foam luffed or not. ...may be the problem that Jonjo faced in getting the first roll in

[/ QUOTE ]
The IRC heavy weather jib was being used for that first test roll. No foam luff but heavy cloth and this was the sail's first trip out of the sail bag. It was probably too much halyard tension combined with new sail cloth.

Hey! I have not left the marina yet in this new yacht but I am refining my genoa furling already.

 

[tome]

Re: No foam luff

A little trick I discovered with our jib (500 sq ft) to make it easier to furl is to come off the wind until the main is blanketing the jib. Takes all the stress out of furling, and makes it a doddle. Keep a little sheet tension on for a neater furl. We do this all the time except when the main isn't set. Only takes a few moments.

We then start the engine and head to windward whilst stowing the main.

 

[dickh]

Re: No foam luff

You should also consider using a clutch instead of a cleat for the furling line - much easier than a cleat, just haul it in! Any of the well known makes will do - I used a Rutgerson as I had an endless furling line and the Rutgerson was the only one at the time which could be easily dismantled and the rope let it. I believe Spinlock do a version now.
Again I've never used a winch, just release the sheet or round up to windard and you should be able to pull it in by hand.