New sails ..... reefing system.... boom...et al

[BlueSkyNick]

This should put the pigeon amongst the cats.

A number of factors recently have persuaded me it is time for some new sails. Apart from showing their age, minor repairs and new UV protection are required. Most importantly, I would love to be able to point a few degrees higher particularly in lighter winds. Finally, I want to do away with vertical battens to eliminate stiffness (no rude comments please!). We have a ‘behind the mast’ furling system, circa 1990. I don’t wish to publicly criticise the manufacturer of our current mainsail. Its works OK, but I just don’t want to buy another one.

So I have had a long conversation with a well known sail makers, to discuss the options, and there seem to be 3.

1. Buy a new main (with no battens) and genoa at a reasonable quality and price. Pointing will improve, but still not optimal. Least expensive, and no major surgery required.
2. New sails as above. Remove furling system from mast by drilling out rivets and replacing with blanks. Keep existing boom, maybe new gooseneck, fit stack pack and lazy jacks. Slab reefing– may require me to leave the cockpit, including when short-handed. Medium price, depending on labour costs of removing the existing system.
3. As in 2., plus replacement boom to enable full single line reefing, hence all manageable from the cockpit. Don’t know how much to expect, but am assuming it will be expensive.

I am awaiting quotes on all 3 options, which will allow a more objective decision.

Based on the above, what does the panel think?

 

[jimi]

I think you're miffed cos you did so badly in the RTI and thus are trying to blame your tools. Thats what I think!

 

[tome]

You beat me to it Jimi!

Personally I'd go for option 2. Simple slab reefing works for us (make sure you add a 3rd deep reef) and I'm no fan of single line reefing.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Yep, that's one of the reasons .... its just helped me decide to do something which I have been thinking about it for a while anyway.

Anyway, we didn't do that bad - beat 350 boats who quit, plus Ellen's corrected time was 90mins worse than ours. Once I get all the undergrowth cleaned off next week, we will be much better off.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Hah....

You want to do a Jimi... he got Parahandy to clean his off for him.......... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I could save on the labour costs by getting a couple of guys to remove the existing system with the mast in situ, rather than dropping it. IIRC, you and Jimi are still due to hold a mast climbing competition ........ /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Vara]

Option 2,simple all parts easily available for poking with sharp stick or attacking with bread knife in extremis.The other two add unnecessary complication.

 

[jimi]

Actually Para scraped "Clean me" on the bottom of BigNicks boat when he was down!

Actually I'd go for option 2. SIngle line reefing should just be a variation on that theme

 

[MrG_2]

Nick
We've just gone through a similar review of our Jeanneau SO40, which has in mast furling. The mainsail had vertical batterns - which we purchased hoping we could get some sort of leach on the sail. Unfortunately thats exactly what we ended up with 'some sort of leach' so little we wondered why we'd bothered.

Anyway, we've since had the battern pockets removed and the sail trimmed to give a concave leach- as the standard sail came with and it seems to work ok.

What we purchased was a Hood Genoa which was a tad larger than the standard, it also has a slightly different cut, the clew has ended up a bit higher.
The difference in sailing performance needs seeing to be able to believe it.
I'm also with you on the in mast furling - probably wouldn't bother again.
My key point is that your main is probably the smaller of the 2 sails, as ours is, third / two thirds, - spend the dosh on a Genny..


Had a furling mainsail with vertical batterns,

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Thanks for your comments Mark, I am planning on a new genny too. You are right it is much bigger than the main - and provides most of the power upwind.

 

[fireball]

Go for option 2 ... you could arrange an internal line in the boom for the reefing without going the whole hog of single line - means 2 lines per reef to your cockpit, but would save you the task of going to the mast ... unless the boom is knackered I wouldn't replace it

 

[Lee_Shaw]

Re: Seeing as I hate to spend money unnecessarily...

...I'd be tempted to try to get the benefit of No.3 (cockpit reefing) but by first going down the much cheaper No.2 route (existing boom).

In a perfect world I reckon I'd have 3 slabs operated from the cockpit by a two line reefing system and retain the hooks on the mast just in case all that lot goes tits up.

 

[Sailfree]

For best sail performance at minimum cost I would get decently cut sails with slab reefing and a stack pack.
The opinion engineering factor is whether to add full battens and the necessary mast track bearing cars. I personally would pay the extra for say an additional .5 to .75kt but others probably far better sail trimmers than me would possibly disagree.
Latest boat has single line reefing but it has unfortunately proved too easy to overload the front (luff end) block and damage it. While the hook on the horn system at the mast is bullet proof
Lets us know your final decision.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Now got the quotes, albeit from only one company, ie Kemp, who admit they are not the cheapest.

Based on the same spec of sails for all - (could go lower or higher)

Option 1, replace both sails on existing system. £1778
Option 2, same quality sails, stack pack, etc £2600 plus up to £900 to take the old system off.
Option 3. As Option 2, plus £816 for a new boom.

Option 3 is out, because I don't see the benefit, just to get single line reefing.
Option 2 is most attractive based on my own thoughts and everybody's comments on here - thanks to all. Just need to work out how to get the old system off at a lower cost. Secondly, how to get two lines per reef back to the cockpit, along with halyard, kicker and topping lift, when we only have 6 jammers.
Option 1 - may fall back to this, once SWMBO has passed comment on the whole idea!!

 

[Lee_Shaw]

I got my sails from Kemps - good they are. Are they offering you mid season discount? Might be worth hanging on a little if they're not.

[ QUOTE ]
when we only have 6 jammers

[/ QUOTE ]

Extra clutches or some such - space permitting (ideal world). Topping lift one shouldn't need to be too heavy duty. Some folk only have reefs 1 & 2 (4 reef lines) led back and deal with 3 at the mast. I've often mused over why it's the third one and not the first one and assumed that it was because if you think you need to be tucking that baby in you may just want to tie it up properly and be sorting a few things out up deck anyway, but I have never sailed in heavy enough weather to shed any light on the matter.

 

[ParaHandy]

Do both the main halyard and the outhaul come back to the cockpit? I ask this because I don't know if you have a winch on your mast suitable for either and if you change to option 2 then, when you reef, you must have both a main halyard winch and reefing winch at the mast (for single handed) ....?

 

[ccscott49]

Remove reefing, new boom, (single line) new main, fully battened, stack-a-pack, lazy jacks, tri radial roller genoa!!! Zooooooom!

 

[Twister_Ken]

Stripping off old behind mast reefing.

Have a mate who did this on a 44 footer, then had the old rivet holes filled, then added a new track for full length battens, then had the mast etched and painted in a 2 part epoxy cream. Looks great, but a new mast might have been cheaper!

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Yep those prices include the seasonal discount Lee.

I am only planning to have two sets of line back to the cockpit. DOn't plan on using the third reef too often, and will prepare the lines well in advance if necessary.

I have a winch each side of the mast, Para. Then I also have a winch each side of the companionway along with 3 jammers each. Currently these are used for topping lift and kicker on port, then outhaul and furler on starboard.

If I make do with these 6 jammers and two winches, I would plan for
Topping lift and One pair of reefing lines to port
Halyard and second pair of reefing lines to starboard

and sacrifice the kicker which I would then need to adjust by a brief visit forward.

I also plan to ask Santa Claus for a vang, in which case I will be back to 6 lines again ...... I fink!

So that's all the canvas and string worked out.

Now, who wants to buy a 15 year old furling system? Buyer collects from current location !!

 

[davehu]

I would go for a normal slab reefef mainsail. I used to have a furling main on my Vancouver and was fed up with the sailing performance. I took of the old system and used the existing boom OK. My mast is Kemp and all the old bit still seem to be available. If you use a furling main without battens the performance will be worse because the area is smaller. I think you have done well still having a 1990 vertical batten sail, however because of the nature of the design once the sail gets a little stretched it will be awful. Go Slab reefing you will not regret it and the cost of a slab sail plus bits will likely be little different to a well cut reefing sail - if such a thing exists.