New sail - asymmetric or symmetric?

EdEssery

EdEssery

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I have a Hanse 342. In the sail wardrobe I have a standard main and a Dimension Polyant self tacker. I also have a 0.75 ounce symmetric spinnaker and a 0.75 ounce asymmetric.

We are about to embark on some longer distance short handed racing - the Biscay Challenge in 2009, possibly the Falmouth 500 in 2010 and the AZAB in 2011.

I do not want to be messing about changing headsails on the foil so I plan to stick with the self tacker and accept the penalty of not being that competitive when beating in under 10 knots. We should be compensated for this in the handicap.

Where we do have a gap in the wardrobe is from reaching round to running in medium/heavier airs which are too much for the existing 0.75 ounce sails.

We will be racing under IRC which allows you to have three down wind sails. I am therefore planning to get a 1.5 ounce downwind sail which will be flat cut and about 85% of maximum size - i.e. a Code 3.

My dilemma is whether it should be an asymmetric with a high cut clew or a symmetric spinnaker flat cut with narrow shoulders.

Which would you choose and why? Or do you think I am completely mad?

Ed
 
My thoughts are that the Hanse's are not very high ballast ratio and you are not going to have a lot of fat on the rail. Therefore look for a running/ broad reach sail, the symmetric.
On closer reaches you'll have to make do with the white sails.
Just my first thoughts, interested to see what others say!
Good Luck!
 
Until recently I would have said the Symetrical sail with no hesitation.
We have a 1.5oz symetrical with very narrow shoulders which has always left the boat feeling amazingly solid, even with the breeze into the 30s. And can be held very high in less breeze. As an example we flew this sail on this year's RTI all the way from the needles to Bembridge without ever getting close to broaching, and surfing at speeds over 15 knots off st Cats. A very versitile sail.

However... One of our main rivals was alongside us at the needles, and flew an A sail in those conditions. They beat us by a large margin. I then had a grandstand view of them using that sail a lot during a very windy Cowes week to destroy their class downwind, there was just no-one else in it down wind.
Another However... This was a sail they used when it was not a dead run, they had another sail for the deep runs, which was a symetrical kite, it's also a lighter boat than a Hanse.

One small point, IRC does not limit the number of kites, but you can have 3 without accepting a small penalty. Inshore this isn't worth it, but offshore it really can be. Obviously it depends on your budget, but with the lack of a big genoa I'd be considering a code 0 for use upwind in less than 10 knots and reaching in less than 20. If you get those conditions for any time at all you'll easily win over the handicap increase.
 
Thanks for that - very helpful.

What wind angle can you get up to with your narrow shoulder 1.5oz symmetrical and at what wind speed?

Can I ask what your boat is and what the boat that did so well with an asymmeteric is?

We also did the RTI and went round without flying any sort of kite - I wanted to but the crew weren't confident and discretion is the better part of valour. Despite this and blowing a mast foot block which we had to slow down to sort out, we were still 11th in class. So a decent med/heavy airs downwind sail like you used might have made a big difference and helped us toward the chocolates!

Thanks,

Ed
 
On the basis that you are unlikely to be gybing your heavy weather downwind sail an asym will perform better and be more stable. I had one on my last boat, a Sigma 362, and it was a terrific sail. Gybing an asym on a pole is a pain!

I quite agree with Flaming about thinking about having a flat reacher. I have one, on a Dehler 39, that goes as shy as low 40s apparent and up to about 12 kts app. Thereafter if we are still v shy the white sails cope. I have a non overlapping jib for the same reasons as you. 4 kites cost me 1 point on my rating.

A conversation with Peter Kay at Quantum in Hamble Point might be constructive, he has helped me with kite wardrobes a lot and has access to all the US ACC technology from the US side of Quantum.

See you in Hondaribbia.
 
Like flaming, for inshore/round the cans racing I would always have preferred a symmetrical kite that you can project to windward on its pole and give you plenty of options for sailing downwind. Sailing on a J109, I've always bee frustrated at the limited ability to run deep and fast, but I recognise that the trade off depends greatly on the design of the boat.
For the short handed racing that you are planning, a-sails make a lot of sense and for long offshore passages, this is probably even more valid.
An a-sail on its own furler would be a great weapon to have on board, but exactly what size and shape depends on the pole / prodder that you intend to use.
Try contacting Judel & Vrolik (the boats designers) to get their advice, or failing that, a sailmaker that is making performance a-sails (as opposed to cruising shutes). A final though would be to speak to a top IRC designer (Mark Mills) who has had success modifying older designs for IRC.
Good luck with your plans and hope you are successful.
 
Ah that things are that simple.

An asym on a conventional articulating pole is incredibly stable deep down wind with the downside that it’s a pig to gybe unless you have a top top crew like on an ACC boat. So for offshore it would make a brill chicken chute.

To have a downwind sail on a furler presents problems ‘cos as it will not be flat cut it will roll up poorly. A snuffer would be better, yes I know all about Flaming’s views, but a light reacher rolls well but the cost of a roller is quite fierce and in view of the winds strengths the sail will be used in, added to the fact that it will probably be about 70 sq m can’t see the point.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ah that things are that simple.

An asym on a conventional articulating pole is incredibly stable deep down wind with the downside that it’s a pig to gybe unless you have a top top crew like on an ACC boat. So for offshore it would make a brill chicken chute.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I've used one like that, and it is stable. In fact the more I think about it, the better that idea sounds for this sort of shorthanded use.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Like flaming, for inshore/round the cans racing I would always have preferred a symmetrical kite that you can project to windward on its pole and give you plenty of options for sailing downwind. Sailing on a J109, I've always bee frustrated at the limited ability to run deep and fast, but I recognise that the trade off depends greatly on the design of the boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never a truer word. I've often thought that the 109 would be an absolute IRC weapon with a slightly smaller symetrical kite, especially in a high wind location, the Asymetrical seems mismatched with the hull design, it's not quick enough to plane and bring the wind forward.
 
Descision made! I am going for a Code 3 asymmetric in 1.5oz about 85% of full size, fairly flat cut. Hopefully it will:
- reach well in lighter/medium airs and compensate for the lack of a big jib/genoa,
- broad reach in medium/heavier airs when the wind is too strong for my 0.75oz sails, and
- be usable as a chicken chute going downwind in medium/heavy airs by setting it, as Doris suggests, on the end of the spi pole and bringing the tack aft a bit.

I am going to launch it out of a snuffer.

We shall see....

Ed
 
I suspect you are asking a lot of the shape.

To be really stable running you will need a fuller shape, for reaching a flatter one. Be sure to discuss your compromises with a seriosly techie sailmaker like Peter Kay as I mentioned before. Pisser to get the sail and find it falls between the stools!

By the way are you doing the Biscay with Judith??
 
It's all a compromise. I did speak to Peter Kay following your advice - along with four other sailmakers! The consensus is that asymmetric is the way to go - at least with four of the five. The deep running is possibly the most challenging bit of the compromise. Peter was one of a couple of people who suggested tacking it down on a low set pole.

We'll see how it works out.

Ed

PS I've PMed you about crew.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Peter was one of a couple of people who suggested tacking it down on a low set pole.


[/ QUOTE ]

Invest in a carbon pole.
Or just wait until your pole breaks, then replace with a carbon pole!
 
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