New MBY

[benjenbav]

Well, a real surprise. A very hard-hitting human interest story leading the way to another really good edition.

I liked the head-to-head boat challenge on the Hunton/Windy/Scorpion however shamelessly the concept may have been lifted from car mags.

A very thoughtful piece on colregs, taking the subject way beyond the normal rote learning. I particularly liked the analogy using traffic roundabouts. It was also very clever of the sub-editor to label the illustration of the give way/stand on interaction in rule 17 as "Rule 7" to check we were all paying attention.

And I haven't even got round to reading the additional reasons why I might want a Fleming 55 other than that they are gorgeous and that I just would.

Thanks, Hugo and team: the standards are really high at the moment.

 

[Firefly625]

Well, a real surprise. A very hard-hitting human interest story leading the way to another really good edition.

I liked the head-to-head boat challenge on the Hunton/Windy/Scorpion however shamelessly the concept may have been lifted from car mags.

A very thoughtful piece on colregs, taking the subject way beyond the normal rote learning. I particularly liked the analogy using traffic roundabouts. It was also very clever of the sub-editor to label the illustration of the give way/stand on interaction in rule 17 as "Rule 7" to check we were all paying attention.

And I haven't even got round to reading the additional reasons why I might want a Fleming 55 other than that they are gorgeous and that I just would.

Thanks, Hugo and team: the standards are really high at the moment.

after a free subscription Ben?

 

[benjenbav]

after a free subscription Ben?

As if! The thought never crossed my mind. But now you mention it...

 

[jfm]

Yup I agree BJB

Fleming piece was nice. The Greek cruising/human interest story was great. The Azimut couple had not had great cruising and I fear they saw the utterly beautiful Elba/Portoferriao (pic on p 6 and 7) not at its best, and this came across in the write up. However I deduce from the last para that they will be in Bonifacio and the beautiful Lavezzi Island in the next issue so I'm looking forward to that. It's a shame they have chosen to cruise down the E coast of Corsica, which is a big mistake: they should be on the west coast and they will (I fear) leave Corsica thinking it's not all that great becuase of this.

The "new gear" section was interesting: new wireless handhelds for the Garmin ship VHF set, retrofittable to existing. And a simple-fit 3G weather data download gadget that overlays weahter on Garmin screens, like the US system but for Europe. Garmin really are leaving Raymarine for dust now.

I didn't like the Yachmaster thing as much as you. Figure 4 on page 92 was plain wrong: Boat A is overtaking vessel and the explanation given ("because she is outside the overtaking sector") is wrong. MBY should publish a correction

The article on Balearics was handy because I'm going to all three islands in a couple of weeks, though it was a bit out of date on the detail and didn't seem to be based on a recent cruise (eg it recommended anchorages in Mahon, but it's now illegal generally to anchor there, and it said Cala Mondrago can be a quiet anchorage - yeah right!)

There is a pic of me on page 113 - I'm helming the 2007 Targa 47. Photo taken between the Lerins Islands, off Cannes. Fame at last

 

[benjenbav]

Yup I agree BJB

Fleming piece was nice. The Greek cruising/human interest story was great. The Azimut couple had not had great cruising and I fear they saw the utterly beautiful Elba/Portoferriao (pic on p 6 and 7) not at its best, and this came across in the write up. However I deduce from the last para that they will be in Bonifacio and the beautiful Lavezzi Island in the next issue so I'm looking forward to that. It's a shame they have chosen to cruise down the E coast of Corsica, which is a big mistake: they should be on the west coast and they will (I fear) leave Corsica thinking it's not all that great becuase of this.

The "new gear" section was interesting: new wireless handhelds for the Garmin ship VHF set, retrofittable to existing. And a simple-fit 3G weather data download gadget that overlays weahter on Garmin screens, like the US system but for Europe. Garmin really are leaving Raymarine for dust now.

I didn't like the Yachmaster thing as much as you. Figure 4 on page 92 was plain wrong: Boat A is overtaking vessel and the explanation given ("because she is outside the overtaking sector") is wrong. MBY should publish a correction

The article on Balearics was handy because I'm going to all three islands in a couple of weeks, though it was a bit out of date on the detail and didn't seem to be based on a recent cruise (eg it recommended anchorages in Mahon, but it's now illegal generally to anchor there, and it said Cala Mondrago can be a quiet anchorage - yeah right!)

There is a pic of me on page 113 - I'm helming the 2007 Targa 47. Photo taken between the Lerins Islands, off Cannes. Fame at last

Hmm, I may have flicked over page 113. Will certainly check it out. I did recognise the back of your head in the previous one. But that didn't require massive sherlockian skills given that it was on your boat and once all of the other possibilities had been eliminated, what was left had to be the solution.

I did think the overtaking illustration (Fig 4 p92) throws up an interesting issue, to wit the fact that in the wording of 13 (b):

"A direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam"

and

"such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights."

will be rather different if the sternlight is situated some distance astern of the beam.

For most practical purposes this anomaly is going to be saved by the operation of 13 (c): "When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly." But one might well imagine that on a large commercial vessel where the sternlight is 100m or more abaft the vessel's beam there could be quite a difference.

 

[jfm]

Yes that anomaly is clearly there, but i doubt it is ever an issue in practice. And it is way down the list of defects and poor drafting within the colregs

My complaint was that vessel A on p92 is clearly the overtaking boat as specified in rule 13, without any doubt/anomaly. Yet the article said it was't. The grounds given in the article were that it is not in the overtaking sector but if the author thinks the question of whether you are overtaking depends on whether you are in that sector he seriously misunderstands the rule. You can be the overtaking boat if you have merely passed through the sector (as A clearly has); you do not have to be actually in it. If the article were right, then all overtaking boats would cease to be the give way boat as soon as they emerged from the 22.5degree sector, which is clearly a nonsensical result and is not what the rules provide.

 

[gjgm]

Did I read the Garmin download costs right at £5 a time? I only skimmed the review, so I might have misunderstood, but surely most people will use their 3g phone at those costs.

 

[jfm]

Did I read the Garmin download costs right at £5 a time? I only skimmed the review, so I might have misunderstood, but surely most people will use their 3g phone at those costs.

Yes I read the same. £5 per day is just ridiculous, and they will have to drop it else those units will not move off shelves. Sit tight a couple of months I reckon... Also, we are lacking info on what countries it works in and whether there are roaming costs/issues (if the gizmo has a sim card in it)

 

[benjenbav]

Sorry to be a single-issue fanatic (read "bore" if you like) but here goes:

#1 Mea maxima culpa, when I pointed out a sub-editing error at the top of this thread. I was wrong. Looking at the illustration last night I saw it was labelled Figure 7 and not Reg. 7. Phew, I feel so much better for getting that off my chest.

#2 jfm, I absolutely see where you are coming from about vessel A in Fig 4 (p92). It's crystal clear from the text that the author is saying that once you go into the overtaking zone you then have to keep clear until finally past and clear; the reference is actually italicised for emphasis. BUT, I fell to thinking about the illustration. If all of the vessels are moving then the "cone" obviously moves and whilst A would have passed through the (notionally extended) cone if the cone had remained still, I would love to see an animation to see whether A actually enters the extended cone if (a) A is moving a lot faster than the vessel from which the cone is projected and (b) if A is only moving marginally faster (i.e. in the dual carriageway truck-race type of scenario).

#3 I loved the picture of jfm on page 113. I think there should be a new feature in MBY where a picture of a well-known forumite is pictured in an obscure way with a bottle of Mount Gay for the first to identify him or her. Sort of a "Where's Waldo". Of course, it might be a bit confusing in the UK edition where Waldo was Wally if the subject was on a Wally as well...

#4 When I read the latest instalment of Azimut to the Med I pretty much laughed out loud at the little joke about going to check whether the Leaning Tower of Pisa was still leaning. Answer: It is.

 

[jfm]

I would love to see an animation to see whether A actually enters the extended cone if (a) A is moving a lot faster than the vessel from which the cone is projected and (b) if A is only moving marginally faster (i.e. in the dual carriageway truck-race type of scenario).

I'm not sure i agree your science BJB. Motion is all relative. You can therefore analyse the situation by assuming that the overtakee is stationary, and that the overtaker A has a forward speed somewhere between 0.00001knot and a million knots (cannot be zero or negative else A could never be overtaking). Whichever number you pick between 0.00001 and a million, A is overtaking boat, contrary to what was written in the article. A's speed merely determines how long ago he emerged from the forward edge of the overtaking sector, not whether he did so, and you don't need an animation to be sure of that

 

[benjenbav]

Well for sure, as someone whose first degree included a module in Peace Studies I'm not about to take on a mech. eng. boffin even through passive resistance, but what if A zoomed up on a curved trajectory...

 

[benjenbav]

...straightening out at the last minute so that the wash appears to indicate a consistent track

 

[jfm]

but what if A zoomed up on a curved trajectory... ...straightening out at the last minute so that the wash appears to indicate a consistent track

Then, Mr Mendez would be perfectly correct insofar as A would not be overtaking boat. Boat A would however still be give-way: It would be a crossing situation with A=give-way and former overtakee=stand-on boat. A would therefore be in breach for "curved trajectory" turning to port and failing to go past the stern of the stand-on boat.

Peace studies, did you say?

 

[timbartlett]

If all of the vessels are moving then the "cone" obviously moves and whilst A would have passed through the (notionally extended) cone if the cone had remained still, I would love to see an animation to see whether A actually enters the extended cone if (a) A is moving a lot faster than the vessel from which the cone is projected and (b) if A is only moving marginally faster

Your wish is my command ... well, not quite. And this feature is nothing to do with me. But I happen to be working on an update to a colregs book at the moment, so I doodled this scenario (attached).

Red boat steering 000 at 20 kts
Green boat steering 030 at about 22.5kts
As seen from Red, the green boat is on a steady bearing (indicating a risk of collision)
The bearing is about 255 (i.e. it is just forward of the arc of the stern light)

I haven't done a separate drawing, but a similar situation would pertain if the green vessel were doing 45kts and steering 060: in fact, there are an infinite number of combinations of courses and speed that could create this situation.

 

[jfm]

I'm not sure what point you're making Tim. What you have is just a 2-mobo crossing situation isn't it? Red boat is stand on; Green boat is give way (like a UK roundabout). Green boat must turn to starboard a bit.

Or am I totally missing your point (sorry!)? Please put me right!

OK, if there was a T-1 where the vessels were in sight of one another and Green was within the 135deg wide overtaking sector, that would be different. You do not mention any such scenario so I will not introduce it by way of speculation. Anyway, such scenario could never happen unless one vessel had recently changed course or speed. If both vessels have been on steady course/speed then the 255deg bearing will not have changed

 

[timbartlett]

I'm not sure what point you're making Tim. What you have is just a 2-mobo crossing situation isn't it? Red boat is stand on; Green boat is give way (like a UK roundabout). Green boat must turn to starboard a bit.

Or am I totally missing your point (sorry!)? Please put me right!

OK, if there was a T-1 where the vessels were in sight of one another and Green was within the 135deg wide overtaking sector, that would be different. You do not mention any such scenario so I will not introduce it by way of speculation. Anyway, such scenario could never happen unless one vessel had recently changed course or speed. If both vessels have been on steady course/speed then the 255deg bearing will not have changed

The green boat in my picture T=3 is in exactly the same position as Boat A in Jon M's diagram -- just abaft the beam but forward of the overtaking sector, and converging at 30 degrees.

But it has got there without passing through the overtaking sector, and without altering course. The two boats are simply converging with each other -- neither is overtaking the other. That is why the caption in Jon's diagram says "A is not overtaking because she is outside the overtaking sector".

A slight red herring -- if she had been in the overtaking sector but was now outside it, then the bearing must have changed, and it is therefore unlikely that there would be a risk of colision.

(This, incidentally, is why I was fiddling around with my version of the diagram in the first place -- it's very difficult to convey the effect of relative motion in a single diagram, and correspondingly difficult to understand what is being conveyed. We need books and magazines with moving pictures like they have in Harry Potter! It won't be long!)

 

[jfm]

The green boat in my picture T=3 is in exactly the same position as Boat A in Jon M's diagram -- just abaft the beam but forward of the overtaking sector, and converging at 30 degrees.

But it has got there without passing through the overtaking sector, and without altering course. The two boats are simply converging with each other -- neither is overtaking the other. That is why the caption in Jon's diagram says "A is not overtaking because she is outside the overtaking sector".

Tim, I think you are very worng here. The two boats (yours and jon's) might be in the same dimensional position, but they are not in the same circumstances. Your green boat has NEVER been in the overtaking sector, whereas Jon's clearly has and happens just to have emerged from it when "snapped" for that diagram in the magazine. That it is a critical difference.

Furthermore, in your second para above the 3rd sentence makes no sense. A has been in the overtaking sector. The caption you quote, "A is not overtaking because she is outside the overtaking sector", misdescribes the rule: you do not decide that a boat is not overtaking just by noting it is outside the sector; you must also consider whether it has been in the sector and now emerged out of it, which is EXACTLY the situation of Jon's boat A as clearly indicated by the sketch, including Boat A's heading and wake

Surely you can see that Jon's boat A is overtaking boat and the caption is wrong? Or are you actually saying Jon's boat A is not/might not be overtaking?

Edit: in addition, as for

A slight red herring -- if she had been in the overtaking sector but was now outside it, then the bearing must have changed...

I am amazed. Any boat can be in the o/t sector, then emerge from it, without changing heading. Indeed, it is normal when overtaking safely to do just that. Boat A has done exactly that. I'm amazed you think differently, and indeed rule 13(d) is there precisely to deal with this point.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The article on Balearics was handy because I'm going to all three islands in a couple of weeks, though it was a bit out of date on the detail and didn't seem to be based on a recent cruise (eg it recommended anchorages in Mahon, but it's now illegal generally to anchor there, and it said Cala Mondrago can be a quiet anchorage - yeah right!)

The article on the Balearics was a bit rubbish because it omitted several well known and popular anchorages and mentioned a few that nobody except very small boats uses. As a guide to Balearic cruising it was useless but as a collection of pretty pictures, it was quite nice. I can vouch for the fact that Cala Mondrago is quiet though ...... in February. All in all, a typical Cumbo article, not a bad read but you get the impression he's never been to half the places he writes about