New Liros braid on braid has lumps after first wash...

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Bertie1972

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I bought a new Liros braid on braid topping lift this summer. At season end washed it on a short low temp cycle in the washing machine as I've done for years, but this one came out with about a dozen lumps along it (not sure of correct descriptive term - each one like a snake that's swallowed a rabbit).

Took it to the chandlers where I bought it (and have bought all my ropes in the past) - they weren't sure why it had happened, but said they couldn't replace it because I'd washed it and it was only after the wash that the lumps appeared.

The wash was a 'mini 30' - 30 minute cycle at 30 degrees.

Looking at earlier forum posts, the only thing I didn't do was place it in a bag (altough I haven't done that when washing any of my ropes).

I asked the chandlers to check the rope out with Liros, but I don't hold out much hope.

Is there something I should/could have done differently that would have avoided the lumps - and if so, have I just been lucky over the preceding years?
 
Bertie1972 said:
topping lift
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I can't think that this is going to give you to many problems. I have about a meters travel in my topping lift. Pull it taught and it should sort its self out. It is not as if it is doing a lot of work, just holding the boom at a set angle when the sail is not being used. Do you lead the mail halyard back to the boom end when it is not being used?
 
I went to a talk from a rope manufacturer (admittedly Marlow not Liros) and they said never put ropes in the washing machine. Modern ropes have a complex structure and whilst very strong in tension, are not designed to be beaten around from all angles and directions. Just hand wash in a bucket if needed.

He hinted it's less of an issue with older ropes. Makes perfect sense, it's very easy to put an eye splice in new braid on braid rope, but once it's been used a bit it becomes very solid and is almost impossible to splice as the construction "closes up" on itself. I suspect your rope was just still new and flexible and that's where you have gone wrong.

I think you just have to take that one on the chin, the chandler is right, you should not have put it in a washing machine, although you may get away with it in the future once everything has bedded in a bit.
 
Iain C said:
ropes have a complex structure and whilst very strong in tension, are not designed to be beaten around from all angles and directions...
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... which MIS won't happen if you use your wife's favourite pillow case, or else lash 'em all together in a big coil? I may be wrong, but certainly that means they do less flailing inside the machine.
 
Iain C said:
I went to a talk from a rope manufacturer (admittedly Marlow not Liros) and they said never put ropes in the washing machine. Modern ropes have a complex structure and whilst very strong in tension, are not designed to be beaten around from all angles and directions. Just hand wash in a bucket if needed.
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If their statement is true they need to get out more and see how ropes are used, return to the development lab and come up with a produce that is fit for purpose.
 
The lumps can probably be removed by freeing the outer cover at one end, sliding the cover up the rope a bit, then tensioning the inner core. Then slide the cover back down. This is normally described as 'milking' the cover, use some sort of repeated sliding action like milking a goat.
(If I ever get to do that to a goat, having practised on ropes may not turn out well..)
The aim is to pull the slack out of the core, then distribute the cover along it evenly.
You may end up cutting off a small amount of excess inner core. Or you can splice an eye in just the core perhaps.

People who taper and splice ropes do this all the time, the ropes go on to do their job with no harm done.
 
Sandy said:
If their statement is true they need to get out more and see how ropes are used, return to the development lab and come up with a produce that is fit for purpose.
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I use my my iPhone, my Dubarry boots, my binoculars, my watch, and my sunglasses whilst sailing. They are all waterproof, and all get dirty. Perhaps I'll put them in the washing machine too, and according to your logic call foul when they all end up damaged.
 
lw395 said:
The lumps can probably be removed by freeing the outer cover at one end, sliding the cover up the rope a bit, then tensioning the inner core. Then slide the cover back down. This is normally described as 'milking' the cover, use some sort of repeated sliding action like milking a goat.
(If I ever get to do that to a goat, having practised on ropes may not turn out well..)
The aim is to pull the slack out of the core, then distribute the cover along it evenly.
You may end up cutting off a small amount of excess inner core. Or you can splice an eye in just the core perhaps.

People who taper and splice ropes do this all the time, the ropes go on to do their job with no harm done.
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Wot he said..... Cut both ends off so the inner core can 'float'. Tie a figure-of-8 in the middle and secure it to something solid. Then working from the middle outwards, coerce the lumps along a bit like pushing air bubbles out of a decal. Stop frequently to pull the inner core at the end. You should be fine.

Washing machines usually make ropes 'hairy' if not washed in a bag, but lumps are a new one on me.

I very much hope, for her sake, that LW's wife never contracts mastitis. :)
 
Iain C said:
I use my my iPhone, my Dubarry boots, my binoculars, my watch, and my sunglasses whilst sailing. They are all waterproof, and all get dirty. Perhaps I'll put them in the washing machine too, and according to your logic call foul when they all end up damaged.
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A strange logic Iain.

My understanding of the statement made by Marlow is that their "ropes are not designed to be beaten around from all angles and directions" which has left me somewhat agasped. Every use I have seen a rope put to involved it being beaten around from all angles and directions: everything from a sail flogging; having six turns round a winch trying to grind in in a blow; being stood on (don't tell my climbing friends) and stuffed somewhere in a hurry to clear space. If their product can not stand all that then it is not fit for purpose. As a user I actually want to be able to clean rope quickly and efficiently. In my case usually stuffed in a pillow case in the washing machine when my wife is out of the house. This is done as I want to remove the amount of stuff that falls out of the sky, get blown about in the wind and causes damage to the rope and increases drag through the system.

Moving onto other equipment then they are have a totally different function and if they are being beaten around from all angles and directions then I suggest that we are both doing something very wrong! ;)

Come to think of it my sunglasses have and my phone would survive a wash cycle on a low temperature setting, but it is not an iPhone. :D
 
Thanks all

Ian C I suspect yourMarlow talk was on the money - and may be why I haven't had a problem in the past. I'd noticed the braid on braid ropes I've bought recently seemed more pliable and the outer sheath to be a looser fit than the ones I bought in the noughties.

It'll be interesting to see if Liros come back with a similar answer.

My chandlers originally suggested (and demoed) that I use a fid to pull out the core for an inch or so at the location of each swallowed rabbit, untwist it and then carefully pull it back in (having first tied off the rope a few feet back). I tried it but didn't work for me (or appear to be visibly twisted inside).

I'll try LW395's suggestion, and report back (and also what Liros have to say).
 
I did have this happen a few years ago, from memory on a fairly new piece of rope. As others do I just put the ropes in the washing machine on a low heat and short cycle, never put in a bag. Usually works for me and then spend a pleasant hour or so untangling all the ropes! Most of my ropes are now old so don't have any problems recently.
 
I've always bagged ropes, mostly climbing ripes, but the principle is the same ... the one time I didn't ( a pair of old running backstay tensioners) they came out all lumpy and I had to bin them.
 
Liros is right. You should NEVER wash a new rope in a machine. This happens quite frequently, as the attached image shows. Wash it by hand (if at all--it didn't really need washed) for the first few years, and then wash it in a bag. Or take your chances. The steady motion of the machine does it by milking the core relative to the cover.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QUMhJvwL...M/-yvxIaoN7Es/s400/herniated+rope+low+res.jpg

The reason they do this is that the cover is left somewhat loose for easier splicing. You can't have it both ways.
 
Sandy said:
A strange logic Iain.

My understanding of the statement made by Marlow is that their "ropes are not designed to be beaten around from all angles and directions" which has left me somewhat agasped. Every use I have seen a rope put to involved it being beaten around from all angles and directions: everything from a sail flogging; having six turns round a winch trying to grind in in a blow; being stood on (don't tell my climbing friends) and stuffed somewhere in a hurry to clear space. If their product can not stand all that then it is not fit for purpose. As a user I actually want to be able to clean rope quickly and efficiently. In my case usually stuffed in a pillow case in the washing machine when my wife is out of the house. This is done as I want to remove the amount of stuff that falls out of the sky, get blown about in the wind and causes damage to the rope and increases drag through the system.

Moving onto other equipment then they are have a totally different function and if they are being beaten around from all angles and directions then I suggest that we are both doing something very wrong! ;)

Come to think of it my sunglasses have and my phone would survive a wash cycle on a low temperature setting, but it is not an iPhone. :D
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We'll have to agree to disagree. The statement from Marlow was never to put ropes in a washing machine as they will get damaged. The OP and thinwater seem to vouch that this will happen. I have never had a rope go "lumpy" from any kind of use whatsoever on a boat, including flogging sails, riding turns, over or underloaded winch drums, whatever. Probably because the ropes are designed to deal with flogging, not with washing machines...which, incidentally have "beaters" built into them to deliberately agitate the contents of the drum. When a rope manufaturer says "don't put ropes in a washing machine" you can't then go back to them and say that their product isn't fit for purpose because you can't...er...put it in a washing machine...
 
And incidentally, the "mini 30" wash the OP refers to will usually be 30 degrees, 30 minutes including a spin. The rope will be quite happy at much higher temperatures than 30 degrees, it's the spinning at thousands of RPM it won't like so much...
 
Iain C said:
And incidentally, the "mini 30" wash the OP refers to will usually be 30 degrees, 30 minutes including a spin. The rope will be quite happy at much higher temperatures than 30 degrees, it's the spinning at thousands of RPM it won't like so much...
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I worked on a rope wash research project with one of the rope manufacturers. The herniated rope pic I posted was from that project.

* Often detergent and high temps won't hurt the fiber, anymore than they will polyester clothing. However, they will remove the spinning lubes, which will make the rope a little stiffer and prone to squeaking. It can also increase internal wear. However, the lubes are generally gone by year 3, so detergent is only a problem the first few years.
* It's not the spin cycle, it is the steady milking back and forth during the wash cycle. This varies from machine to machine, but it can be like what you do when TRYING to get the core to pop out of the rope with a fid during the splicing process.

The most important step is actually a long pre-soak in a bucket, in my testing.
 
I normally soak dirty ropes in cold water with a kitchen de-greaser in a plastic drum for several days. The coil is loosely lashed with string so that it does not tangle and I dunk it vigorously up and down daily. At this stage the water is close to being black due to the traffic film (from a very busy road that runs about 20 metres from the boat) hence the use of the de-greaser.
After rinsing thoroughly in clean water, using the same method of vigorous agitation, I let most of the water drip away and then put the coil, as is, into the spin dryer. Never had a problem with this method.
The only time that I tried to machine-wash was an external halyard (for the asymmetric) that had been out for several years before I bought the boat. It came out clean all right but, for some reason, most of the blue flecks had been severed and looked like a sort of mini baggy-wrinkle. Just the blue flecks, the white polyester strands were perfectly OK.
That ex-halyard was re-cycled as a beautiful ocean-mat for the cockpit and is used after climbing back on board from swimming. I always try not to waste 'waste'! ;)
 
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