New girl here - Sunseeker Super Hawk 48 or Camargue 46/55

[waterbird]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and would firstly like to say hello to you all. I have replied to a thread on the Superhawk 48 but the thread looks a little old. We, well I as it is my hard earned pennies that will finance it are looking at buying either a Sun Seeker Super Hawk 48 or Camargue 46 to 55ft sports Cruiser. We will be moving down to the Costa tropical in Spain and intend on mooriing the boat there.

Firstly we would love to hear from any one who owns or has owned one of these beautiful machines and may be kind enough to give their thoughts and suggestions. As it is such a large financial outlay, I am keen to make her earn some of her keep by Chartering her out on occasions. Louise my partner is RYA power boat intermediate level and also a diving instructor. I am myself an educated Marine biologist and love to dive but as yet do not have my RYA powerboat certificates. I am planning on doing the courses aboard our new boat when down there.

Would we be able to charter the boat out with the Intermediate level?, could we hire a skipper for the day if working away for a Charter if needs be?. This is my lifelong dream to own either a Super Hawk or Camargue but we are both new to this as it has taken most of my young life to achieve this dream . We would love to know about Mooring fee's per annum on the Costa Tropical for a boat of this size. We have seen a huge range in prices, we do not want to be paying ridiculous sums like those paid around Marbella.

The dream is to have her in a good, cost effective Marina along the Costa Tropical area from which we can enjoy the Med and enable us to use her and enjoy her as well as Charter her on occasions. I am sure many of you have achieved your dreams and have had great fun aboard your babies. I and we look forward to any information, suggestions, experience of these boats and any advice, all is greatly apprciated .

Best wishes

Tara & Lou

 

[powerskipper]

Hi Tara & Lou,
For the size of boat you are looking at you will need Yachtmaster Coastal, or Yachtmaster Offshore with I think the commercial endorsement too[ not 100% sure if owner charter] , if you want to charter her, but that only applies if she is a British flagged vessel, each country has its own required qualification,and boat safety requirements for charting their flagged vessels, as far as I know.
The RYA web site has loads of info and there technical department should be able to help with any questions.

Its a great dream but do some homework and get some training if required, but remember to enjoy the boat too.

 

[thefatlady]

I had a Camargue 47 in the Med for a few years and cruised from SoF to Tunisia and Italy to the Balearics. I had a great time and the boat was excellent.

The Superhawk 48 is cramped and pokey, but nicely finished and fast.
The Camargue is far better suited to cruising,
The Camargue 46 has a slightly odd layout with the isolated rear cabin. Most have Detroit diesels which I would avoid. In fact, most older Camargues have Detroits, which is a pity. Nothing basically wrong with them – just thirsty and difficult to re-sell.
Most Camargue 47s have Caterpillar 4208 diesels which I would go for.

Depends what you want. For a fast day boat, it’s the Superhawk. For long distance cruising with some Sunseeker comfort it’s the Camargue. The Camargue was still not that roomy for a 47ft, but there were mostly only two of us and it felt quite opulent.

I know of a Camargue 47 which, when I looked it over three years ago, was superb and is still for sale. It was spotless, had Cats, and almost every conceivable extra. I believe it also has Spanish matriculation tax paid. If you are interested, PM me.

 

[jfm]

Yup, yachtmaster with commercial endorsement as ps says. Catch is, even though YM is not rocket science and you could likely do it fast with some studying, it also requires you to present to the examiner a personal sailing log book with some thousands of miles at sea including several long and night passages. For a recreational boater that can take a few years to do. Exact details on the logged miles that you need are on RYA website

I can't advise on mooring there, I only know the sofF part of the Med well

Check also the Spanish matriculation tax. If boat is 15m or over there is a 12% one-off tax if you use it as charter boat with some owner use. Quite a nasty tax, and heavy penalty if you get caught and don't pay

Ad of course to be chartered a boat has to be "coded", which means installing a load of safety gear and getting a surveyor to sign off that is satisfies the rules, with annual check ups. Depending on how good your diy is, this can cost £5 to £10k

But apart from that hassle, Med boating is a lot of fun

Good luck

 

[waterbird]

Hi again, thank you so much for that wonderful wealth of information, that really helps us. Maybe the Chartering idea is one for the future, the main thing is to enjoy the boat and the Sea . We are looking for a British flagged boat that has it's tax status settled ideally. There are some RYA instructors working out of Benalmadena that I may consider for getting qualified with. Louise already has her Power boat intermediate which is a bonus.

I have spent the evening researching a few Marinas and Almerimar looks to be the favourite so far as far as pricing goes and facilities. Having looked over a few of the threads here, it has a nice reputation too. As far as boats go I had read about the Detroit engines being thirsty, thank you so much Fatlady for your insight into the Camargue 47 as it is definately a boat we are considering.

Thank you very much to you Powerskipper and Jfm, it is lovely to meet you all and recieve such warm replies. I am so looking forward to some fun on the Med, it has been 20 years since I last had any fun boating down there. Louise is looking forward to it too as she used to teach diving along the coast there a decade ago. If I can have a little corner to myself aboard with some space for my Microscope and access to some clear waters to dive I will be a happy girl.

I am so looking forward to it all.

Best wishes

Tara & Lou

 

[Renegade_Master]

Hi Tara & Lou welcome to the forum. We run an RYA sea school along the coast west of Benalmadena, Sun Coast Marine. www.suncoastmarine.co.uk We have been established out here for seven years so have soon experience also regarding boat chartering.

As jfm has said the coding of the boat is costly, and satifying the Spanish authorities difficult.

As I have just been going through obtaining a Spanish charter licence for our jet boat, I can confirm that the, boat can remain Uk flagged, but would have to be matriculation tax paid. It then needs to be part one registered to a UK resident and the registration needs to read "commercial vessel" by the title "Type of vessel" (i.e. not private pleasure craft.

To get this reg it needs to be MCA coded. Further it has to pass the Spanish surveyors inspection for the appropriate ZONA coding under the Spanish system.

All documents then have to be officially translated into Spanish (i.e not via Google translatior :~)

Bothj the skipper AND crew have to be commercially endorsed Yachtmaster offshore, or if Spanish the Spanish equivalent. There's more the skipper and crew must be under contract to a completely seperate social security system called "regime of the sea" cant remember the Spanish translation, this means they pay monthly social security.

When I suggested to them that I already pay through my autonomo business 274 euros per month SS and the income and management of the boat would go through my existing accounts, they said you still need this contract, which will effectivekly be with .............erm ......myself.

Withe regard to the boat we have a customer with a superhawk 48 on surface drives, narrow fast and complicated drive system. I have skippered a Cam 50 and much nicer IMHO sensible shafts 680 Manns lovely. Hope all this helps please send an email to info@suncoastmarine.co.uk if you have any specific questions orwould like to look at courses out here. Regards Clive

 

[MapisM]

As jfm has said the coding of the boat is costly, and satifying the Spanish authorities difficult.

As I have just been going through obtaining a Spanish charter licence for our jet boat, I can confirm that the, boat can remain Uk flagged, but would have to be matriculation tax paid. It then needs to be part one registered to a UK resident and the registration needs to read "commercial vessel" by the title "Type of vessel" (i.e. not private pleasure craft.

To get this reg it needs to be MCA coded. Further it has to pass the Spanish surveyors inspection for the appropriate ZONA coding under the Spanish system.

All documents then have to be officially translated into Spanish (i.e not via Google translatior :~)

Bothj the skipper AND crew have to be commercially endorsed Yachtmaster offshore, or if Spanish the Spanish equivalent. There's more the skipper and crew must be under contract to a completely seperate social security system called "regime of the sea" cant remember the Spanish translation, this means they pay monthly social security.

When I suggested to them that I already pay through my autonomo business 274 euros per month SS and the income and management of the boat would go through my existing accounts, they said you still need this contract, which will effectivekly be with .............erm ......myself.

Blimey! Makes me wonder why anyone would want to run such business in Spain, these days.
As if there wouldn't be equally nice (or even nicer) cruising grounds elsewhere in the Med...

 

[Renegade_Master]

Very true Mapis I just got back from a cruise on the Azura, Dubrovic and Croatia cruising area wonderfull and then of course Venice mmmmm

Problem with del sol is indeed no islands as such unless you count erm.........Africa or round Gib

 

[waterbird]

Very true Mapis I just got back from a cruise on the Azura, Dubrovic and Croatia cruising area wonderfull and then of course Venice mmmmm

Problem with del sol is indeed no islands as such unless you count erm.........Africa or round Gib

You are making me very envious that sounds wonderful. Ok the Costa Tropical and del Sol may not be as amazing but I loved my time down there, the Costa Brava and South of France too. To be able to see it all from a different perspective aboard our own boat will be something truly special.

Cast your minds back to when you were looking forward to it all, how did it feel?. I am sure we will enjoy the Med be it Spain, the North, the East, well anywhere. it is an adventure in the making and a dream to come true.

Thank you Renegade master for your link to the school, your prices look great. It is not too far from where we are looking, we will certainly be in touch. Croatia sounds very interesting and wow Italy too, lucky you. One day if I am ever wealthy enough I would love to see it all.

Best Regards

Tara

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

waterbird, if you think you're going to make a living chartering the boat in Spain, you're probably making a mistake. If you're just looking for a bit of extra cash to set off against the running expenses, that may work but you only need a couple of big bills caused by the extra charter work to blow a hole in that as well. Until recently, I had my boat in Majorca and I offered it for charter although in actual fact, I did very little charter work but I can tell you the following.
You will need to get the boat MCA coded and that could cost you €10k or so. Then you need a local charter licence which needs to be renewed annually and a survey every 3 years or so to ensure the boat still complies with the Coding. Then there is the issue of matriculation tax. Jfm is not quite correct to say that the tax applies to boats 15m and over. There used to be an exemption for boats less than 15m but last year, the Spanish Customs had a purge on charter boats and decided to apply the tax to all boats including foreign registered ones, even sub 15m boats on the basis that nobody had applied for the exemption correctly. I know because I had to pay it. What you actually pay is a bit vague because the Spanish have a 'book' from which they decide on the new value of the boat and then apply a depreciation figure to come up with a taxable value, on which they then assess the tax at 12%. The only way to get round this would be to buy a boat that had already had matriculation tax paid on it. Then, if you use a charter agent to get you the charter work, he will want 25% of the charter fee
If you do decide to charter, I would recommend that you do not allow your boat to be bareboat chartered because it will get abused. I only ever allowed my boat to be chartered together with a qualified charter skipper. They cost about €200-300/day but the charterer pays. With regard to the boat, people who charter are looking for something flash to show off in so a Sunseeker is a good start. Most charterers are also looking for as new a boat as possible so something like an early Camargue 46 will probably not attract as much business as a newer 47. I'm sure a Superhawk 48 would charter well but it's not a boat for spending long periods on because the accomodation is tight thanks to the narrow hull. I don't know whether you intend to do any extended cruising yourself. Also the 48 is a bit tricky to handle in a windy marina compared to the shaftdrive Camargues as the 48 has sterndrives and an awful lot of hull to be blown about. Don't forget also that charterers will expect the boat to be in Med spec ie with pasarelle, aircon and generator

 

[waterbird]

Thank you

waterbird, if you think you're going to make a living chartering the boat in Spain, you're probably making a mistake. If you're just looking for a bit of extra cash to set off against the running expenses, that may work but you only need a couple of big bills caused by the extra charter work to blow a hole in that as well.

Dear Mike - thank you so much, it was just an idea. I don't intend running it as a business at all or intend making a living at it. I was just interested in making her earn a little towards her keep. I have a growing business to run that takes up all my available time 7 days a week 365 days a year , there is no interest in running a Chartering business, you are quite right just a little towards upkeep.

Then there is the issue of matriculation tax. Jfm is not quite correct to say that the tax applies to boats 15m and over. There used to be an exemption for boats less than 15m but last year, the Spanish Customs had a purge on charter boats and decided to apply the tax to all boats including foreign registered ones, even sub 15m boats on the basis that nobody had applied for the exemption correctly. I know because I had to pay it. What you actually pay is a bit vague because the Spanish have a 'book' from which they decide on the new value of the boat and then apply a depreciation figure to come up with a taxable value, on which they then assess the tax at 12%. The only way to get round this would be to buy a boat that had already had matriculation tax paid on it.

-That is the plan to find a British flagged boat that has had it's tax paid as this is a tax we would like to avoid if we can. I am still torn between the SuperHawk and the Camargue if the Camargue it will probably be the Cat powered 47. It is a life long ambition and to find the right boat is important, for us to be able to spend a few weeks aboard and have fun is the aim of the game.

Thank you so much for your information and help, that goes also to everyone who has taken the time to read, help and reply.

Best wishes

Tara & Lou

 

[Divemaster1]

....... Most have Detroit diesels which I would avoid. In fact, most older Camargues have Detroits, which is a pity. Nothing basically wrong with them – just thirsty and difficult to re-sell.......

Just to throw my tuppence in here.... having two Detroits myself and may have some information which may be of interst....

Most of the Detroits two strokers (71 and 92 series) consume 200g diesel per KW/h (when in-tune), which is comparable with other manufacturers figures from the 80's and 90's... Today's leisure engines are marked around 190g KW/h.....which of course is less.... but how much in reality??

The higher consumption reputation the engines have is a combination of owners nut understaniding the need to keep the mechanical injectors in sync and therefore engine in tune... once out of tune, you will have loss of performance and in al probability a noticable fuel consumption increase.... and at lower RPM (idle to about 1000 RPM) there are more mechanical friction in these engines, and this does result in power loss (peceived high...ish consumption) at lower RPM....

Tuning a V6 or a V8 will set you back about 2 - 3 hrs.. for someone who knows what they are doing (I do our Straight Six's alone in less than two hours)... and parts are readily available throughout the world....as there are hundreds and thousands of these in various configurations all over the place..

Anyway, this so called "high consumption" reputation is somewhat balanced out in cost of parts etc.... Oil filters at about £10, fuel filters at £6, injectors at £40 etc.

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to know more about a specific engine and configuration...

 

[thefatlady]

Detroits have a long and honourable history and there have been many good things written about them. Fuel consumption is not one of them. You may be right and that is a misconception, but nevertheless, it makes for my second point - Detroit engined boats are are not easy to re-sell.

John

 

[nacho2009]

I have sailed extensively most of Spain's coasts. Almerimar is fine, a little overbuilt and coastline is not particularly attractive for short distance crusing IMHO. You can check out as alternative Marina del Este, nor very far Westbound by La Herradura. If you want some of the Balearic/Costa Brava feel but with warmer climate and staying at Spain's mainland, I would suggest to consider my home port Marina Greenwich at Altea. From here you have very attractive short range cruising from Javea down to Benidorm Island (nothing to do with the town of Benidorm), plus being only some 60 miles far from Ibiza and Formentera.

 

[Sundays_Child]

Not wanting to drift the thread too much, I don't see the problem with Detroits.

Yes, they have an, ahem, "he-man" sound that is unmistakable when starting up in the marina. The boating equivalent of a big US muscle car.

Modern engines are much quieter, but I'd wager that looking at reliability over hours, the Detroits would kick modern Volvos into a different field.

 

[waterbird]

Thank you

I have sailed extensively most of Spain's coasts. Almerimar is fine, a little overbuilt and coastline is not particularly attractive for short distance crusing IMHO. You can check out as alternative Marina del Este, nor very far Westbound by La Herradura. If you want some of the Balearic/Costa Brava feel but with warmer climate and staying at Spain's mainland, I would suggest to consider my home port Marina Greenwich at Altea. From here you have very attractive short range cruising from Javea down to Benidorm Island (nothing to do with the town of Benidorm), plus being only some 60 miles far from Ibiza and Formentera.

Dear Nacho,

We have been looking at Almerimar as a base as we have been looking at some property in the area and the Marina is not far from where we have been looking. We are however looking at some ideas on the Costa Brava. We would like to at some point Cruise the Balaerics and have a good location from which to explore the Med. At some point in the future a Cruise around the Greek islands is a dream of ours also.

Could you recommend some reasonably priced Marina's along the Costa Brava, not too far from the South of Barcelona?. We will look into Greenwich, it sounds good. I spent some time in Altea at my parents friends villa, gosh going back when I was 8 years old but I loved the area. I must admit Benidorm is certainly not of interest. When I was last staying in the hills, I remember seeing the Bright flashes and hearing the loud bangs that followed of an evening due to Eta's bombing campaign.

You are very kind to reply.

Thank you again

Tara

 

[waterbird]

The Detroits reliability

Not wanting to drift the thread too much, I don't see the problem with Detroits.

Yes, they have an, ahem, "he-man" sound that is unmistakable when starting up in the marina. The boating equivalent of a big US muscle car.

Modern engines are much quieter, but I'd wager that looking at reliability over hours, the Detroits would kick modern Volvos into a different field.

I must say after doing more research, the Detroits seem to have a good reputation. As one user suggested keeping them in true is the key. The thing that worries us though is the apparent Stigma that they are gas guzzlers and would affect the re-sale potential of the boat. Although saying that there a couple of very reasonably priced Detroit engined Camargues out there.

If we were mechanics with experience then we wouldn't worry so much but sadly we both only have Outboard experience and general tractor Diesel engine experience.

Thank you for your addition to the thread.

Tara

 

[Nick_H]

Waterbird

A Superhawk 48 is a very different boat from a Carmargue 55, it sounds as though you've settled on a brand and then looked at the boats they make, rather than thinking about what you want from the boat, then seeing who makes something suitable. If you were to give us some more details about what you want to do on the boat (eg. how far you want to go, how long you want to stay on board each trip, whether your priority is speed, space, luxury, and of course, how much you want to spend) then we could offer some better advice. Nothing wrong with Sunseeker, and as Deleted User says it's a popular brand to charter, but there may be other boats that suit your needs better. Also, you need to be aware of how much it costs to keep a boat. By the time you've paid insurance, berthing, servicing, polishing, repairs, guardiennage, it can be over 10% of the cost of the boat per year.

Almerimar is probably a good charter base, as there are lots of bars and restaurants in the town, and around the marina, and it's OK access from airports. Marina del Este, as suggested above, is very pretty, but small and not easy access from the airports.

 

[waterbird]

Other manufacturers

Waterbird

A Superhawk 48 is a very different boat from a Carmargue 55, it sounds as though you've settled on a brand and then looked at the boats they make, rather than thinking about what you want from the boat, then seeing who makes something suitable.

Dear Nick,

thank you for your reply, sure I can understand why you would think that. I was only 14 when spending sometime aboard a Sunseeker. I have spent some time aboard Fairlines, Rinkers and Princess, plus small speed boats and Sailing yachts. I have looked into other manufaturers over the years as this has always been a dream of mine. There are some brilliant manufacturers out there and very attractive boats.

Sunseekers have always caught my eye, they are British and are lovely boats, quite luxurious too. Ok at this time I cannot warrant spending everything I have on a boat so finding the right boat is key. The Superhawk is an amazing machine but really would only suffice for say a Weekend (still an option mind you). The Camargue and Portofino are a little more suitable for longer stays. As mentioned before it has been a long term dream and the Sunseekers we are looking at fall within our top line budget (although we are trying obviously to find a bargain in respect to the current Economic climate).

Sure the costs of upkeep and berthing etc are considered hence looking at boats within our low budget as no way could we consider a New Sunseeker at this time. We are not ruling out other manufacturers at all and may end up with for example a Rinker but we would like to achieve my life long dream of the Sunseeker. The Camargue 44 to 47 is perhaps the ideal considering future plans cruising but then again things could all change as our circumstances evolve.

Almerimar prices look very reasonable and is close to a place we are looking at. Louise used to take dive parties out of the Marina del Este and loves it but the availability and pricing look a little high, plus not quite as close to where we are looking at as a base. Chartering was only an idea, I dont think with all the legislative hoops to jump through that will be an option. I am a little nieve as to Spanish laws unfortunately and as we know in Spain they like to keep changing the Goal posts lol. Finding a boat with Matriculation tax paid is another aim too.

Thanks again

Tara

 

[Divemaster1]

......

If we were mechanics with experience then we wouldn't worry so much but sadly we both only have Outboard experience and general tractor Diesel engine experience.......

That sounds about right for Detroits ... know what a spanner is, right end of a screwdriver and are prepared to spend a bit time getting to know the iron lumps...