New engine buyer guide, tips and tricks

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seafox67

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My latest sailboat will be my last... it's a keeper :)

With a 29 year old Volvo penta 2002 (18HP) engine, I am thinking at some point in the next few years I will put a brand new engine in her.

I've been looking at Beta, Volvo, nanni engines and the quotes are all coming in at around the same, £5000 - £6000 for just the engine.

I can pick my time to buy over the next few years so are there any tips from seasoned buyers to get this engine price down a bit? or is there little room in this market?

Cheers

Paul
 
Welcome to the forum.

That is just how things are - competitive markets lead to a convergence of prices. However, it is often possible to get a "Boat Show" discount - particularly in September. Other ways of educing overall costs is to negotiate a package deal with a dealer including installation - although DIY would be cheaper. Similarly you will likely find you have to spend up to £1k extra on other bits that need changing, including a new prop, so look at a total budget of £6k DIY or £7-8k professionally installed.

You should find a Nanni/Beta anything up to £1k cheaper overall than a Volvo/Yanmar, but pay close attention to the spec and extras.
 
Thanks for your reply.
In general, does the 'boat show' discount vary alot? or is it something like 10% across all manufacturers.

Originally, I had my sights set on the Beta 20. But then a guy explained that Volvo made it easier to replace the old penta 2002 with D1-20.

I'm planning to go the DIY route so being my first engine install... the more simple it is the better

Cheers

Paul
 
I would have a look at this thread:

http//www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?414797-Marine-Power-diesel-engines-any-good&highlight=marine+power+solutions

It's a long read but I was impressed
 
seafox67 said:
Thanks for your reply.
In general, does the 'boat show' discount vary alot? or is it something like 10% across all manufacturers.

Originally, I had my sights set on the Beta 20. But then a guy explained that Volvo made it easier to replace the old penta 2002 with D1-20.

I'm planning to go the DIY route so being my first engine install... the more simple it is the better

Cheers

Paul
Click to expand...

!0% would be about right, but there can be even better deals such as Volvo part exchange deals that they run from time to time, although they tend only to bring the artificial list prices down closer to beta.

No difference between fitting a D1 20 than a Nanni/Beta. The D1 is a totally different engine from the 2002 so you will still need new bracketry to cope with the different footprint and a new prop. The only possible saving is if you have a down angle gearbox as that is an extra cost option on a the Kubota based engines, but no cost on volvo.

There was a long article in PBO a couple of years ago replacing a 2003 with a D1 30 in a Moody. Was surprised how much modification was required.

The swap is only easier if you have an MD 20X0 series which is almost directly interchangeable with the newer engine.
 
Tranona said:
!0% would be about right, but there can be even better deals such as Volvo part exchange deals that they run from time to time, although they tend only to bring the artificial list prices down closer to beta.

No difference between fitting a D1 20 than a Nanni/Beta. The D1 is a totally different engine from the 2002 so you will still need new bracketry to cope with the different footprint and a new prop. The only possible saving is if you have a down angle gearbox as that is an extra cost option on a the Kubota based engines, but no cost on volvo.

There was a long article in PBO a couple of years ago replacing a 2003 with a D1 30 in a Moody. Was surprised how much modification was required.

The swap is only easier if you have an MD 20X0 series which is almost directly interchangeable with the newer engine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information...

I was starting to think the D1-20 had been designed to simply slot into the space of the Penta 2002!
It sounds like it may need the same amount of modification as the rest.

The Marine Power diesel engines are great prices. However, I am hoping my new engine will last 25+ years and it's a bit of gamble to rely on one company for spares and service!


Cheers

Paul
.... My wife wants the nanni engine simply because of the name! the kids will call it 'nanni fox' :)
 
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When I was making this choice I plumped for a Nanni, partly because the blue paint blended better with the cabin upholstery!
 
I replaced my old Volvo 2002 with a Beta 25 (in a Beneteau First 305).

I installed it myself, putting some of the savings in not paying for the installation into extras to make the installation easier/better, namely taking the Technodrive down angle gearbox option, the Beta crossover exhaust elbow option to save exhaust hose re-routing, the Beta special feet option, so that the foot spacing matched the old V2002 footprints, and a Vetus Bullflex coupling, which can cope with a small amount of angular misalignment. Beta also do an instument panel which matches the size of the old Volvo ones, which I specified
I think I got 17.5% or so discount on the Beta boatshow stand, as well as either the feet or the elbow thrown in free (can't remember which it was.
Going up from 18 to 25 hp also meant that I needed to go up to 3 prop blades from 2 blades in order to couple the available power to the water using a prop diameter that would still fit in the space available under the hull. I didn't fancy too much extra drag, so splashed out on a Btuntons Autoprop, which I'm very pleased with.
You may also want to renew all the engine bay soundproof lining whilst the bay is empty, so you can everything mounts up if you want to do a thorough job, however the new engine has hugely improved our enjoyment of the boat, and the better fuel economy of the Beta + Autoprop combination makes a tank of fuel last about twice as long, (handy as the tank is not very big) and with all the "make it easy" options the installation was pretty straightforward.
I don't think Nanni offer the special exhaust or foot options, and also on this size of engine they use a 40mm exhaust elbow compared to Beta's 50mm, which I thought may make the Nanni elbow quicker to clog up and need the carbon cleaning out of it. I used an adaptable 40/45/50mm waterlock to connect the short 50mm hose from the Beta to the old 45mm hose leading the rest of the way to the transom.
I had to modify the rear plywood engine cover a little to accomodate the Beta high rise elbow.... I think the original Volvo installation in my boat was a bit borderline as far as exhaust elbow height above the waterlock went.
 
I re-engine with a Beta - Kubota based, very similar to Nanni which is also Kubota. I replaced a BMC 1500 so had to have a new shaft, prop and exhaust system. Also consider access to various bits for servicing. I discounted Yanmar & Mitsubishi because access to the sea water pump was difficult. Beta and Nanni were easy. Beta will make feet to match your existing bearers. I looked at all the suitable engines at the Southampton boat show and finalised the deal at the London boat show. I was going to order the 20hp Beta but they offered a 25hp for only a few pounds more. On my boat I was limited on power as I could only swing a 13" diameter prop. I did DIY and just had to have the installation approved by the local Betas agent to get the warranty. Just had to modify one item which was not a problem. I also took the opportunity to replace the sound insulation, replace the steel fuel tank with a plastic tank(also repositioned the calorifier adjacent to the new fuel tank, thus gaining a galley locker), new fuel lines, new above the water line sea water filter, repositioned sea water outlet to above the water line, new anti-syphon valve and complete new exhaust system. Good luck!
 
Tranona said:
The swap is only easier if you have an MD 20X0 series which is almost directly interchangeable with the newer engine.
Click to expand...

I believe that's what happened to our boat shortly before we bought her. Same engine beds, same saildrive, same or very similar exhaust, fuel inlet probably in a similar location. They kept the same prop which worked although it wasn't quite correct for the new engine speed.

Pete
 
Just replaced 33 year old VP2003 and 120SB saildrive with D1-30 and 130 Saildrive. No significant issues on size, connections, engine feet (adaptors supplied) compatibility etc. Alternator and exhaust are on port and filters on starboard on new one, opposite to old model.
 
prv said:
I believe that's what happened to our boat shortly before we bought her. Same engine beds, same saildrive, same or very similar exhaust, fuel inlet probably in a similar location. They kept the same prop which worked although it wasn't quite correct for the new engine speed.

Pete
Click to expand...

The prop should be near enough the same as the shaft speed is the same (1461 against 1475). The 120 drive is 2.47:1 and the 130 2.19:1 reduction ratio.
 
Thanks for all your replies...

It's starting to sound like I should not target the engine too much for big discounts. Instead look at maybe getting discounts/deals on all the additional parts that I will need.

Also, as this boat is going to be a 'keeper' :) From your advice, I should take the opportunity to replace and enhance other areas around the engine... sound proofing, fuel tank etc.

Cheers
Paul
 
I think the 'boat show discount' idea is a myth. Why should manufacturers do such a thing? The advantage with buying at the boat show is that it is easy to compare the various options. This applies to instruments/electronics as well.
seafox67 said:
Thanks for your reply.
In general, does the 'boat show' discount vary alot? or is it something like 10% across all manufacturers.

Originally, I had my sights set on the Beta 20. But then a guy explained that Volvo made it easier to replace the old penta 2002 with D1-20.

I'm planning to go the DIY route so being my first engine install... the more simple it is the better

Cheers

Paul
Click to expand...
 
seafox67 said:
Thanks for the information...

I was starting to think the D1-20 had been designed to simply slot into the space of the Penta 2002!
It sounds like it may need the same amount of modification as the rest.

The Marine Power diesel engines are great prices. However, I am hoping my new engine will last 25+ years and it's a bit of gamble to rely on one company for spares and service!


Cheers

Paul
.... My wife wants the nanni engine simply because of the name! the kids will call it 'nanni fox' :)
Click to expand...

I have a Marine Power MP446 - 2.2L 46bhp and no issues so far but its early days as I've only had it installed 2years and 40hours. By keeping the existing Prm 150 gearbox and selling the old Perkins 4108, the total cost was about £3000. It was more or less a direct swap for the 4108 so I was able to do the swap myself apart from a couple of hours crane hire for the lift out/in.

Its much quieter and smoother than the old 4108 and the extra torque meant I was able to increase the pitch of my Kiwi prop to reduce rpm for an even quieter cruise.

The longevity is an unknown issue of course, but given its half the price of the big names and if looked after, should (like any engine) be reliable.

As for spares: my 4108 was 35years old and many spares were simply unobtainable anyway so not sure how long spares would be available for a new big name engine. Given today's throwaway attitude, they'd expect you to buy a new engine after 10years if there was a major problem.

Finally, I couldn't justify the cost of a big name brand - it would not add to the value of the yacht, and I don't need it to last 25years as I won't last that long myself!
Ian
 
The Beta engine will come in at under £4k. Deal direct as you have outlined above.
Now is a good time to order.
Volvo might produce fine engines but they have a certain reputation for expense.
I did the same as you for a boat I was intending to keep, although the existing engine was fine. It was a good move and I got a handy sum for the old unit.
 
doug748 said:
The Beta engine will come in at under £4k. Deal direct as you have outlined above.
Now is a good time to order.
Volvo might produce fine engines but they have a certain reputation for expense.
I did the same as you for a boat I was intending to keep, although the existing engine was fine. It was a good move and I got a handy sum for the old unit.
Click to expand...

In comparison, the MP321 3cyl 21hp (1.1L 134kg) is about £3600 inc vat and PRM 80 gearbox, or for £120 extra, the MP327 - 27bhp (1.4L 230kg) model with PRM gearbox, or the same engine with 'budget' gearbox is £3500 inc vat.


http://www.marine-power.net/micro-14hp---21hp.html
http://www.marine-power.net/uk-price-list.html
 
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doug748 said:
The Beta engine will come in at under £4k. Deal direct as you have outlined above.
Now is a good time to order.
Volvo might produce fine engines but they have a certain reputation for expense.
I did the same as you for a boat I was intending to keep, although the existing engine was fine. It was a good move and I got a handy sum for the old unit.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip :)

Just got a quick reply back from Beta marine, direct and they have quoted about £1k less than the two quotes from dealers.


Cheers
Paul
 
+1 for changing the ancillaries while you get the chance. Just bought a boat with pretty much brand new engine (installed 2 yrs ago, 40 hours on the clock) and the surveyor condemned the existing fuel tank in the survey as the top was pretty much rotten through.

In the grand scheme of things if doing DIY its cheap to replace and simple with the engine out, but changing it now is a complete ball ache!
 
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