New Boat!! Surveyor S Coast

[crisjones]

We have had our offer accepted on our new (ish) boat and obviously now need a surveyor !!!

Boat is currently in the Chichester Harbour area. Would be grateful for any surveyor recommendations from forumites. The boat is a catamaran so a surveyor with experience in this area would be preffered.

Please PM if you do not want to post names.

Thanks for any help, Chris

 

[Malcb]

I used David Greening in Chichester and was very satisfied with the service and the content of the report backed up by a full discussion. His tel no is 02392631806 and his website is www.boatsurvey.biz

 

[Cobra25]

Don't rely on the latest one to be deified this week

Here's the info you need to make an educated decision. Don't forget, YOU, are employing him for an extrapolated wage of +/- £70,000 a year.

HIGHLIGHT THE TEXT AND PASTE IT INTO WORD FOR EASY READING.

In particular get references from them, proof of professional indemnity insurance and info regarding their experience in the type of vessel you want surveyed. ALL THIS IN WRITNG caveat emptor applies to the skill you are buying as well as the vessel


GUIDELINES

CONTENTS
Introduction
What is a Marine Surveyor?
Small Craft Marine Surveyor
Boat Examiner
What to look for in selecting a Marine Surveyor
Questions to ask

*
What academic qualifications?

*
What relevant training, experience, practical expertise?

*
What testimonials?

*
Confirm up-to-date knowledge

*
Confirm Personal Indemnity insurance

*
What equipment and facilities?



Other Attributes
Initials and Jargon
What type of survey?


*
Pre-Purchase

*
Valuations

*
Insurance Surveys

*
Damage Surveys




Codes of Practice
A Cautionary Note



INTRODUCTION

The purpose of this document is to give the potential user of a Marine Surveyor someguidance only on how to select a Marine Surveyor. The International Institute of Marine Surveyors is not responsible for any loss or damage resulting from the choice of a particular surveyor after the reading of this document.


*
What to look for?

*
What questions to ask

*
What do all the initials and jargon mean?

*
What type of survey do you need and what should it cover?



WHAT IS A MARINE SURVEYOR?

Definition

“…… a person who uses their skills and experience (based on established competence of ships, boats, cargoes and the sea) to look at and report on the factual condition of any ships, boats, cargoes or things appertaining to ships, boats cargoes and their respective environments” The International Institute of Marine Surveyors.

Small Craft Marine Surveyor

A small craft Surveyor is a recognised competent person (qualified and experienced) in the survey and valuation of small craft. The Surveyor may or may not have academic qualifications but it is essential that he have some form of extensive relevant experience and practical training. Preferably he should also hold corporate membership of one of the professional organisations.

The Surveyor should carry adequate professional indemnity insurance.

Boat Examiners

Examiners are persons who have undertaken and passed BW's training scheme and their work is limited to carrying out inspections for the Boat Safety Scheme. They are NOT Marine Surveyors and should not be confused with such.

It should be borne in mind that the Surveyor owes the Client a duty of care and,

if he is advised at the time of the survey that the Report is to be used for Insurance or Mortgage purposes, he will owe a duty of care to the Underwriter and Banker also but to no other party.

WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN SELECTING A Small Craft MARINE SURVEYOR

QUESTIONS TO ASK

When selecting a surveyor, the choice on offer can sometimes be baffling. The following items should help you to choose a surveyor or company of surveyors who will best meet your requirements and will offer you a good service at a fair price.

What Academic Qualifications?

The academic qualifications an experienced Marine Surveyor may have relevant to small craft surveying may include among other things the following: - A degree in Naval Architecture, Marine or Mechanical Engineering or a similar related materials/engineering based subject or a Master Mariner's or Chief Engineer's Certificate. The Diploma in Marine Surveying issued by the International Institute of Marine Surveyors is a typical example of relevant academic qualifications. Ask the Surveyor if there were any units in his academic studies or practical training specific to small craft, yachts or motor cruisers. A competent Marine Surveyor will not be afraid to discuss their academic qualifications.

What Relevant Training, Experience and Practical Expertise?

In becoming a Marine Surveyor relevant training and experience is imperative. Has the surveyor served an apprenticeship, attended any practical training courses or is the surveyor part of a company that gives or has given practical training? Many surveyors operate on their own and have had little supervised training. What experience of your particular type of boat does the surveyor have? Even the best surveyor will not be of much use to you if they are not familiar with the method of construction of your chosen craft.

What Testimonials?

Can the surveyor back up his claims? Can the surveyor supply references?

Confirm Up to Date Knowledge

What does the surveyor do to keep abreast of technical and regulatory developments? Ask when the surveyor last attended a professional seminar or whether the surveyor is registered witha relevant Continual Professional Development Scheme. Keeping up to date with changes in the industry will help to ensure that you receive the best survey from a well-informed person.

Confirm Professional Indemnity Insurance

All Marine Surveyors should carry Professional Indemnity/Errors and Omission insurance cover. Ask the Surveyor the level of cover they carry, any deductible applicable and any limitations on the coverage e.g. each and every claim, aggregate claim etc.

What Up-to-Date Equipment and Facilities?

Does the Marine Surveyor have the best equipment available today? Is there an on going investment in non-destructive test equipment and alternative testing methods? The traditional hammer and spike remain invaluable tools but there are other very useful pieces of equipment that provide invaluable information when properly used.

OTHER ATTRIBUTES

Flexible Attitude to the Client's Request

The survey should satisfy your needs, e.g. pre-purchase, insurance etc. The surveyor should not provide only what they want to tell you. A good surveyor will take time to discuss and identify what it is you want to find out from the survey and charge a fee accordingly.

A Realistic and Competitive Attitude to Pricing

All Marine Surveyors operate in order to make a profit. However, it is always sensible to obtain several quotes to ensure that the prices quoted are competitive. It is also worth remembering that usually, but not always, you get what you pay for. A VERY cheap price should always be approached with caution. It may be a genuine and worthwhile special offer or it could be a cheap price for a poor job. Ask precisely what you get for the money. Does

it include VAT and travelling costs or the Surveyor's out of pocket expenses? A high price might not always be good value either. Does the high priced Surveyor have any interest in working for you or does the Surveyor consider your boat to be beneath them? Make sure that the above points are satisfied whatever the price.

Ask questions.

It is the only way to find out if a particular Marine Surveyor

is right for you.

If any Marine Surveyor ever avoids a direct question it is probably because he is trying to hide something

INITIALS AND JARGON

There are many different organisations within the international maritime industry. Some of them are professional technical or learned societies, which represent the interests of surveyors and some even claim to be the only representative body. Others are Government quangos or trade associations. However, there is no formal or legal requirement for the qualification of a yacht or small craft Marine Surveyor. At present, all these groups have a particular self-interest and no one group truly represents Marine Surveyors as a whole.

Some of the organisations, titles and initials (in alphabetical order) you may encounter are: -

ABSE Association of Boat Safety Examiners www.abse.org.uk

This organisation represents the interests of BSS Examiners and has no policy of regulating Marine Surveyors. Members of the organisation should not be confused with Marine Surveyors.

ABYC The American Boat and Yacht Council www.abycinc.org

Membership of this organisation is not a marine surveying qualification and should not be quoted as such. It publishes a regularly updated 'Blue Book' of construction standards for use by boat builders and Marine Surveyors, which are recognised as authoritative by the United States Coast Guard. There are no U .K. equivalents of these standards.

ASNAME The American Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers

It was formed in 1893 a primarily large commercial vessel organisation based in America. To belong one has to be either a naval architect or a marine engineer. Its aims are to "advance the state of the art, afford opportunity for the exchange of information and ideas, disseminate results of research experience and information among the members, encourage and sponsor such research, co-operate with educational institutions and to promote the professional integrity and status of its members".

BMIF The British Marine Industries Federation www.bmif.co.uk

This organisation is a trade organisation for the British boating industry and represents companies operating in every sector of the UK small craft market. It has no policy of regulating Surveyors.

BSS The Boat Safety Scheme

This is a joint initiative between BW and the EA to ensure that boats using their waters comply with standard regulations and are kept in a safe condition. A set of requirements covering the gas, fuel, electrical, fire fighting and ventilation systems are laid out and routine inspections are carried out at four yearly intervals to ensure that the standard is maintained. Surveyors or Examiners able to examine these boats are, to some extent, regulated by BW/EA.

BW British Waterways www.British-Waterways.org

This is a Government organisation and the management body of a large proportion of Britain's inland waterways. It is responsible for the navigation, the licensing of boats, angling, bank and lock maintenance. It regulates the issue of the BSS but has no policy on regulating Surveyors other than those approved for the issue of Boat Safety certificates who must belong to one or other of specified Surveyors professional organisations or have passed the BW's own Examiner training course.

Captain

Many Master Mariners, as well as others, call themselves Captain. The title of Captain is a naval/military one except when used to describe the appointed 'Captain' of a particular ship. In the U.K. only serving officers of the Royal Navy or Army, holding the rank of Captain may use this title when not appointed as the 'Captain' of a ship but, elsewhere, the title Captain may be used correctly. Port Captains and Harbour Masters, for example, are usually required to carry this title and do so correctly. It is quite possible that some Marine Surveyors may be retired Royal Navy or Army personnel. In this case only the Royal Naval Captain is permitted to retain his rank and this should be shown e.g. Captain J Birdseye RN (Rtd).

C. Eng. Chartered Engineer

Not to be confused with a Chief Engineer. This qualification, which is at degree level, means that the holder has reached a status of experience and seniority within the profession that enables the holder to be registered with the Engineering Council as a registered Chartered Engineer. Lesser grades are Inc.Eng (Incorporated Engineer) and Tech.Eng. (Engineering Technician).

CE Chief Engineer

This is a combined academic and practical qualification obtained by serving a given period of sea going experience. After successfully passing a written and oral examination, the candidate is awarded a Chief Engineer's Certificate of Competency, by the appropriate maritime authority, enabling them to act in that capacity on merchant vessels at sea. It is a good foundation for a Marine Surveyor but the Chief Engineer's experience is usually limited to the survey of machinery. They are often members of IMarE.

Engineering Council www.engc.org.uk

This is the British organisation that represents all the senior technical institutions and learned societies in all branches of engineering.

E.A. The Environment Agency www.environment-agency.gov.uk

This organisation is the Government Agency responsible for the whole of British countryside and, as far as rivers are concerned, performs a similar function to BW but, in addition, it is responsible for dealing with floods, monitoring the quality of water in the UK's rivers, canals and estuaries. It has no policy on regulating Surveyors.

Eur. Ing. European Engineer

This title shows that the holder has reached a sufficient level of academic and experienced professional seniority that he is recognised by the European Union as a professional engineer. As such he can practice in his appropriate discipline in all countries within the European Union.

FEANI

This is the European Federation of National Engineering Institutions and controls the issue of the designation Eur. Ing.

IIMS The International Institute of Marine Surveyors www.iims.org.uk

An independent, non-political organisation, the membership of which is open to qualified and experienced Marine Surveyors of all disciplines, marine personnel cargo Surveyors and other specialist consultants from any part of the world. It aims are to promote professionalism and the advancement of knowledge in the profession of marine surveying, to maintain high professional standards decreed in a Code of Conduct and to bring together experts and to organise and evaluate the training of future Marine Surveyors.

The Institute was responsible for organising the academically recognised Diploma in Marine Surveying and the School of Marine Surveyors. It has a very active Small Craft Group, which meets regularly to give practical 'hands on' training sessions to its members. Certifying Authority licensed by MCA.

IMarEST Institute of Maritime Engineering, Science & Technology www.imarest.org

This organisation is the representative body for Marine Engineers. The organisation "facilitates the enhancement of maritime engineering and disseminates information through the spoken and written word". It is part of the Engineering Council and, as such, controls the award of the Chartered Engineer (C.Eng) status to its members. The designations FIMarE and MIMarE signify corporate membership at fellow and member level. Small craft Surveyors belonging to this organisation usually are also members of its sub-group MECAL. IMarEST is a Certifying Authority licensed by the MCA to conduct Coding surveys.

IWA The Inland Waterways Association

The IWA is an organisation set up to promote the interests of the users of the UK inland waterways. It has no policy of regulating Surveyors.

MCA. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency www.mca.gov.org.uk

This is the British Government agency, which represents the interests of ships and the seas around the coast of the UK. It is an agency under the Department of the Environment and regulates the industry codes for small craft safety but it delegates the survey work to SCMS, IMarE, RYA, IIMS and the YDSA. It has a large body of staff surveyors but does not undertake any private client work. Only Surveyors approved by the MCA are allowed to carry out this coding work.

Master Mariner

A Master Mariner may have acquired the special skills and experience to undertake these surveys. Master Mariners are qualified to command ocean-going or, in some cases, coastal ships. Their professional training will have included marine engineering, instruments and control systems, naval architecture, ship construction and many other subjects.

MECAL

The small craft sub-group of the Institute of Maritime Engineering, Science & Technology. It is operated as a Limited company.

MNI Member of the Nautical Institute www.nautinst.org

The Nautical Institute is an independent international professional body whose purpose is to promote high standards of knowledge, competence and qualification among those afloat and ashore with the control and management of sea going vessels. The membership comprises a large number of Master Mariners many of whom are now shore based.

NAMS National Association of Marine Surveyors www.nams-csm.org

This was established to create an organisation that would establish professional qualifications and generate an exchange of current information on approved and recommended practices relating to marine surveying. It aims to promote professionalism, integrity and education in the field of marine surveying. Members are almost exclusively based in the USA.

NRA National Rivers Authority

This organisation has been subsumed into the Environmental Agency.

RINA Royal Institution of Naval Architects www.rina.org.uk

This organisation is the representative body for qualified naval architects. The organisation is part of the Engineering Council and, as such, controls the award of the Chartered Engineer (C.Eng) status to its members. The designations FRINA, MRINA and AMRINA signify corporate membership at fellow, member and associate member level. Other lesser grades of membership such as Associates and Companions are not permitted by the Institution to use the initials of the Institution after their names. The intended aim of the organisation is to make all ships, boats and marine vehicles better and safer. The Institution has an active small craft section.

RCD The Recreational Craft Directive

This is a directive issued by the European Union and is binding upon all member states and comprises a set of standards to apply to all pleasure craft built within the European area after 6th June 1998.

RYA The Royal Yachting Association www.rya.org.uk

This organisation represents the yachting fraternity. It is one of the Certifying Authorities licensed by the MCA for carrying out coding surveys.

SAMS The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors www.marinesurvey.org

This organisation was established in 1987 in the USA to promote the good image and general well being of the marine surveying profession. It has strict entry requirements of academic qualifications and relevant experience judged by peers. Members are almost exclusively based in the USA.

SMCS Society of Consulting Marine Engineers and Ship Surveyors www.scms.org

This body was established in l922 with the aim to providing a central organisation for those engaged in consultative or similar capacity in technical maritime affairs. Fellows, members and associate members can use the designations FCMS, MCMS and AMCMS respectively. This association and its members are mainly involved with commercial or larger vessels but it also has a very active small craft section. It is a Certifying Authority licensed by the MCA for carrying out small craft coding surveys.

Yachtmaster

This qualification, awarded by the RYA, is a sailing qualification gained by experienced yachtsmen. Whilst somebody with this qualification is a competent sailor familiar with the operation and handling of a yacht it does not follow that he is a Marine Surveyor. This is not a technical surveying qualification.

YDSA Yacht Designers and Surveyors’ Association www.ybdsa.co.uk

The YDSA endeavours to maintain high ethical and professional standards amongst its members by specifying stringent qualifications for membership and establishing rules of conduct. Every member is expected to observe the Surveyor’s Code of Practice, which has recently been reviewed and up-dated. The Association offers guidance to prospective marine surveyors for pre-purchase surveys with a Sample Reports Pack, a quick guide to items for inclusion in surveyors, called ‘Key Requirements’ and a Training Pack, which is the basis of the up-grading examination for surveyor members between Affiliate and Associate level. PI insurance cover is required. Membership covers the UK and some overseas members. The YDSA is a Certifying Authority for the MCA for the Code Vessel surveys. They also undertake tonnage surveys for Part I British Registration.

There is no specific academic requirement for membership but applicants need to be able to show that they have undertaken some form of appropriate training, together with some experience as a surveyor. Assessment is largely upon the surveys provided by the applicant, which should demonstrate a good level of knowledge in practical yacht surveying. There are several grades of membership - Affiliate, Associate, Full and Fellow. Only members of Associate level or above may advertise their membership.

ARE YOU CONFUSED?

Many of the abbreviations above will have little relevance to how well your craft is surveyed. Standards amongst all the organisations rely heavily on the personal integrity of the surveyor. Relying on the number of letters after the surveyor's name is no guarantee of having a good job done.

CAVEAT EMPTOR - BUYER BEWARE!

WHAT TYPE OF SURVEY DO YOU NEED AND WHAT SHOULD IT COVER?

The Pre-Purchase Survey

This is usually the most comprehensive type of marine survey and is to be most strongly advised when a client is purchasing a new or, more particularly, a second hand or used craft. It takes place when a prospective owner asks an independent Marine Surveyor to inspect the craft, her machinery, rig, service systems and equipment and to check it all thoroughly to find as far as practical any faults in the structure, rig, machinery and other items whether these are major, minor or merely cosmetic. This type of survey should also cover both the condition and the operation of the craft, its machinery, rig, service systems and equipment.

A pre-purchase survey starts with a full out of water inspection of the hull including a thickness or wetness measurement of the shell as appropriate. A survey of the structural integrity and water/weathertightness of the hull, rudder and stern gear follows. This will include the size and condition of the cathodic protection, a detailed examination of the machinery (non-invasive), propulsion, fuel, electrical, gas, sewage, water and other 'domestic' or service systems. A sea trial should be conducted, where practical. The nautical items, cosmetic appearance and an assessment of the overall level of maintenance, general condition, structural and mechanical seaworthiness of the craft should be considered. Ideally the pre-purchase survey should be carried out first with the craft out of the water then afloat, although this will incur extra charges.

The Valuation or Insurance Appraisal Inspection

This inspection is often carried out at the same time as the pre-purchase survey. It is performed in order to determine or justify the fair market value of the craft and is normally needed for insurance, mortgage or other financing, probate, donations and/or legal cases. It should be borne in mind that, in the latter case, the surveyor may also have to justify his assessment of value before the Courts and should be able to confirm his assessment from published or other publicly available data for similar types of craft.

It should also be clearly stated in the surveyor's report that this type of survey does NOT constitute a pre-purchase survey and it should not be offered or regarded as such.

The Insurance Survey

This survey is performed so that a prospective underwriter can determine whether or not a vessel is an acceptable risk under the Institute of London Underwriters Yacht or similar marine insurance policy clauses. It includes an out of water inspection and covers the structural integrity and general safety of the vessel for the intended or declared use. Most insurance companies will require such surveys on craft over fifteen years of age and they will usually accept that such survey reports remain valid for a period of time (up to five years in some cases). They will also require to know the vessel's fair market value.

The Damage Survey

This type of survey is usually instructed by an insurance company to assess the extent of any damage resulting from an alleged casualty and any subsequent claim. The surveyor's ideas on recommended repairs, an estimate of the cost of such repairs and the probable cause of any such casualty and consequent damage, maybe required.



CODES OF PRACTICE

Both the IIMS and the YDSA publish a Code of Practice for the carrying out of small craft marine surveys. The Marine Surveyor member of the particular organisation is required to adhere to this code. The two organisations also require as a condition for membership the small craft surveyor carries Professional Indemnity Insurance. The reader is advised to obtain a copy of the appropriate Code of Practice and to ask the surveyor if it is adhered to.

The IIMS also produces Codes of Surveying Practice published by Witherby & Co.

The Measurement & Analysis of the Wetness of FRP Hulls.

The Ultrasonic thickness measurement of iron and steel Small Craft Structures

A WORD OF WARNING

After instructing a Surveyor verbally the Client is advised to confirm his detailed instructions in writing so that there is no misunderstanding about what the Surveyor is required to do and what the client expects from the surveyor.
The content of this booklet has been agreed with the other UK based small craft marine surveying organisations - IMarEST, NI, RINA, SCMS and YDSA - to assist the boat buying public in their choice of surveyor.

GET IT ALL IN WRITING

BOL

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: New Boat!! Surveyor S Coast

David Sutton, 01843 583985, mob07748096161. Very thorough. Good clear and detailed written report and reasonable prices. He is also one of the few officially recommended RNSA surveyors

 

[ROSSCO]

Re: New Boat!! Surveyor S Coast

I used Simon May at Boatcare who also covers Chichester - very prompt very efficient service would thoroughly reccomend him (no personal ineterest ) tel - 023 8045 4498 mobile 07939 208840 www.boatcareyachtsurveys.co.uk

 

[BSSOffice]

Re: New Boat!! Surveyor S Coast

See my BSS clarifications and updates on Cobra25's other surveyor posting on this forum which replicates this full-of-information post on this thread.
Rob@BSS Office
Regards