New boat and buyer advice

[Talisio91]

Hi, thanks in advance for everyone's patience and any constructive help.

I am looking to purchase a sailboat of at least 25, ideally 30 FT plus.

I have experience of being on the water but not as a crew member, so I am starting from scratch.

In all likelihood, the boat I buy will need some work - I am happy with this, the main point I want to avoid is any structural work. Would I be correct in saying the best way of evaluating this is with a pre - buy survey?

I am also curious about boat registrations - as I don't have a qualification, yet. If buying outside the UK, I came across a post which said (for Spain) you must hold a qualification to sail, which is not applicable in the UK.
How do I find out, please, which countries of registration have or do not have licence laws?

Are there any other reasons to avoid certain countries of registration?

I intend to seek more specific advice once I have narrowed down my search. Thank you!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Survey yes

Registration You require no qualifications to register a yacht in the UK and as far as I am aware none to register in in any European country however most European countries require qualifications to actually sail the boat which may or may not be checked occasionally by a countries maritime police on a random inspection. They also require minimum equipment on their flagged (registered ) yachts The UK require neither of these so if you have a UK address the easiest course is the small boat registration scheme.
Do not forget about insurance, it would be wise to ensure that you can get this before committing to a specific boat, they may ask for a qualification.

 

[Wansworth]

Spain ….a license to navigate ,variying levels and mandatory equipment ,mostly saftey

 

[CrossedThreads]

A relative has just purchased a boat (small motor cruiser), they have managed to insure it however they are not able to leave the dock until they have completed Day Skipper or must do so with a qualified individual.

 

[Wansworth]

A relative has just purchased a boat (small motor cruiser), they have managed to insure it however they are not able to leave the dock until they have completed Day Skipper or must do so with a qualified individual.

Is that a requirement of the insurance co?

 

[CrossedThreads]

Is that a requirement of the insurance co?

Yes. Vessel is insured currently but cannot be operated by the policy holder until achieving Day Skipper qualification.

Edited to add: relative has very limited experience operating boats and was honest about this. I am sure if he’d told them he had thirty years experience the clause might not have been added.

 

[Wansworth]

Yes. Vessel is insured currently but cannot be operated by the policy holder until achieving Day Skipper qualification.

This must be a fairly new thing certainly the great thing about the UK was you an put to sea without any qualifications ….this could be a game changer to the freedom of the sea……I have a Spanish qualification as I live in Spain

 

[Talisio91]

Thank you everyone , it's much appreciated

 

[Sea Change]

This must be a fairly new thing certainly the great thing about the UK was you an put to sea without any qualifications ….this could be a game changer to the freedom of the sea……I have a Spanish qualification as I live in Spain

Nothing has changed, the person in question can still put to sea, he just won't have insurance cover when he does. And he's not legally obliged to have insurance.

 

[PlanB]

Is he insured with a company used to insuring boats? When we started, with no experience and a 45 ft flybridge cruiser, Bishop Skinner imposed no conditions.

 

[Boathook]

Nothing has changed, the person in question can still put to sea, he just won't have insurance cover when he does. And he's not legally obliged to have insurance.

Most harbours and marinas make having insurance a rule for using there 'waters'.

No one has yet asked to see my insurance, but the papaerwork is always on board.

 

[Tranona]

Self insuring for all risks to the boat is a calculated risk, - that is the size of the maximum loss can be predicted, self insuring against third party claims leaves one open to potentially huge claims against you individually.

Insurers are increasingly setting out more onerous conditions and I guess requiring qualifications for power boats is an obvious one.

 

[Sandy]

Most harbours and marinas make having insurance a rule for using there 'waters'.

No one has yet asked to see my insurance, but the papaerwork is always on board.

Just wait until something goes wrong...

I am sure it won't, but once things happen you will be amazed and how quickly things change.

 

[Graham376]

Are there any other reasons to avoid certain countries of registration?

Are you resident in UK and intending to keep the boat there? Main problem with boats registered in the EU is that they will most likely be EU VAT paid and will be treated as an import if taken to UK. In that case, VAT will have to be paid and the boat must meet the UK Recreational Craft Regulations.

 

[nevis768]

Are you resident in UK and intending to keep the boat there? Main problem with boats registered in the EU is that they will most likely be EU VAT paid and will be treated as an import if taken to UK. In that case, VAT will have to be paid and the boat must meet the UK Recreational Craft Regulations.

I think its complete baloney to say a private buyer would have to meet the RCD 2017 if bringing, say, a Bene or Jen here from the Med. Who would enforce or check this? I think the whole spirit of the Act and the way it is written is purely for business importers or manufacturers. Hence there is no enforcement or any enforcement structure whatsoever to deal with anybody bringing a European boat here, which would then no doubt sit in a marina with hundreds of others which don't comply, but are okay because they changed hands here.... complete nonsense.
And if you look at the definition in the actual act-importer is a business not a private person bringing second hand yacht here
An importer is a person or business based in the UK who places products on the GB market from a country outside the UK. This means that UK businesses which used to act as a ‘distributor’ before 1 January 2021 legally become an ‘importer’ if they place products from an EEA country on the GB market.

 

[Tranona]

I think its complete baloney to say a private buyer would have to meet the RCD 2017 if bringing, say, a Bene or Jen here from the Med. Who would enforce or check this? I think the whole spirit of the Act and the way it is written is purely for business importers or manufacturers. Hence there is no enforcement or any enforcement structure whatsoever to deal with anybody bringing a European boat here, which would then no doubt sit in a marina with hundreds of others which don't comply, but are okay because they changed hands here.... complete nonsense.
And if you look at the definition in the actual act-importer is a business not a private person bringing second hand yacht here
An importer is a person or business based in the UK who places products on the GB market from a country outside the UK. This means that UK businesses which used to act as a ‘distributor’ before 1 January 2021 legally become an ‘importer’ if they place products from an EEA country on the GB market.

I think you are reading what you want to read. It has always been the case (since 1997) that private imports of used bots have to meet the current certification requirements. That is what the first sentence says. The second is simply clarifying that a dealer who previously was not responsible for certification is now.

There is however a question as to how this is enforced as there does not seem to be any "case law", but that may well be because the cross border trade has effectively stopped for economic reasons. The legal position is that you have to report to HMRC on arrival in the UK and you will be advised on what is required to legally import the boat which will include the need to have the boat certified.

Thinking something is complete baloney is very different from having evidence to support your thinking.

 

[nevis768]

I think you are reading what you want to read. It has always been the case (since 1997) that private imports of used bots have to meet the current certification requirements. That is what the first sentence says. The second is simply clarifying that a dealer who previously was not responsible for certification is now.

There is however a question as to how this is enforced as there does not seem to be any "case law", but that may well be because the cross border trade has effectively stopped for economic reasons. The legal position is that you have to report to HMRC on arrival in the UK and you will be advised on what is required to legally import the boat which will include the need to have the boat certified.

Thinking something is complete baloney is very different from having evidence to support your thinking.

I have supplied the evidence, the above quote is from the 2017 RCD, all acts have a list of definitions. This is the definition of importer for the purposes of the RCD. The accompanying blurb about this ACT states it is for Importers and Manufacturers. Importers is defined above in my post, but here it is again,
An importer is a person or business based in the UK who places products on the GB market from a country outside the UK. This means that UK businesses which used to act as a ‘distributor’ before 1 January 2021 legally become an ‘importer’ if they place products from an EEA country on the GB market.

Clearly, this is not a private person who buys a secondhand boat. If you think the RCD of 2017 applies to a private person buying a boat in France etc, then I would be interested which part of the ACT states that, because I can't see it anywhere. As above, any reference to importer is not relevant because importer for the purposes of the RCD is defined as above. If I buy a bottle of wine in France and bring it home, then, arguably, I may have imported it, but I am not a wine importer in terms of any legislation relevant to that business.

 

[Tranona]

Suggest you read this grabauinternational.com/news/update-on-ukca-ce-for-yachts-and-recreational-craft/ which reflects exactly when the a privately imported boat needs a PCA (new certification) if built prior to the 2017 RCD. As you will see it is unclear whether this will be enforced for boats that have an earlier Certificate of Conformity. There has been no mention of the pre 1997 exemption for EEA built boats that was in the EU rules, although that seems still to be in place within the EEA.

This is just what I have been saying and is also stated in the advice given by the RYA, CA and BMF which has been reported at various times in the yachting press.

The fact remains that when a boat enters the UK for the first time by a resident for use in the UK it has to be declared, VAT paid and shown to meet the requirements of the UKCA. For post 2017 boats with a Certificate of Conformity this is straightforward. For boats with a CE mark from 1997-2017 it is unclear whether or to what extent recertification will be required. For pre 1997 boats or boats that were not CE marked (for example from the US) a PCA will be required. It is unlikely that such boats would meet the 2017 RCD/UKCA standards.

The effect of this (plus the need for certification to be carried out by a UK based body) is that importing boats from outside the UK will be difficult and probably not economically viable.

 

[nevis768]

Suggest you read this grabauinternational.com/news/update-on-ukca-ce-for-yachts-and-recreational-craft/ which reflects exactly when the a privately imported boat needs a PCA (new certification) if built prior to the 2017 RCD. As you will see it is unclear whether this will be enforced for boats that have an earlier Certificate of Conformity. There has been no mention of the pre 1997 exemption for EEA built boats that was in the EU rules, although that seems still to be in place within the EEA.

This is just what I have been saying and is also stated in the advice given by the RYA, CA and BMF which has been reported at various times in the yachting press.

The fact remains that when a boat enters the UK for the first time by a resident for use in the UK it has to be declared, VAT paid and shown to meet the requirements of the UKCA. For post 2017 boats with a Certificate of Conformity this is straightforward. For boats with a CE mark from 1997-2017 it is unclear whether or to what extent recertification will be required. For pre 1997 boats or boats that were not CE marked (for example from the US) a PCA will be required. It is unlikely that such boats would meet the 2017 RCD/UKCA standards.

The effect of this (plus the need for certification to be carried out by a UK based body) is that importing boats from outside the UK will be difficult and probably not economically viable.

The link is from a broker offering dubious advice which will suit them. Which part of the RCD states that the legislation requires this, I cant find it, I cant see anything in this Directive which applies to Joe Public buying a boat. I realise it is to UK brokers advantage and others offering services to continue to say this, but where is the section in the RCD that applies? Are you not able to link it or quote from it?

 

[nevis768]

The link is from a broker offering dubious advice which will suit them. Which part of the RCD states that the legislation requires this, I cant find it, I can't see anything in this Directive which applies to Joe Public buying a boat. I realise it is to UK brokers advantage and others offering services to continue to say this, but where is the section in the RCD that applies? Are you not able to link it or quote from it? (This discussion is not about VAT.)