New 70ft+ boat for the Med

[Jumunu]

I’d welcome other’s thoughts?

It been almost exactly 10 years ago since I sold my last stink pot and I’ve satisfied myself double handing a small race yacht in the Solent. However the kids are now of an age where I think they would appreciate some time onboard a boat rather than hotels. We’ve hired a few day trips which have gone well.

Question is what to get. Last time we had a 58ft 1997 Predator based in Palma which was great for the two of us along with some friends. I could drive and we often got someone to help for the day with lines etc.

I’m thinking this time however with 5 of us and the desire to invite friends we need to go larger. I’ve been mainly looking at the Sunseeker 76, Princess 75 new, or Sunseeker 75, Princess 72 second hand. I wouldn’t really want to go older than 5 years as having seen them in action stabilisers are a must and the wife is only going to buy into something she likes the look of.

To afford such a boat it’s going to have to earn its way which means going fully into charter. This in turn means when I use it I will actually be chartering the boat myself. It also means a crew of at least 2 potentially 3. It does have the advantage of family being able to go without me.

Recently I’ve also started looking at the Pearl 80 new or Pearl 75 second hand. Seems a lot of boat for the money and I like the tender garage in the stern.

What’s everyone think? Should I go with the Sunseeker / Princess safe option or try Pearl? Should I go new or second hand? Should I be looking at something else entirely, I’ve limited knowledge of the non UK brands.

Is the whole idea mad and going to cost me a fortune which would be better invested in charters......I sort of know the answer to this is yes but it’s not as much fun is it?

 

[Portofino]

I have a few friends who went down the charter route with a big ish Med boat full on as you say and bought there own time from there own Co . Use-age a exactly as you describe and envisage .
Captain ,s a 50 / 50 , reason of owners lack enough confidence and wife needs extra reassurance.
How ever they all now are private users , gave up the “ charter “ side usually triggered by selling up and buying another boat , the next a more considered buy because by now a couple of seasons they know exactly what they want and importantly what they don’t want .
Financially , I’ll cut to the chase it never seem to pay off , indeed was more hassle and a head ache paperwork wise with relevant tax authorities, both local and at home ( UK) .More so if it’s attempted, the usage to blend in with the mother Co ,s business in the U.K. .You know stuff like staff training, reupholstering ending up in the accounts .
The locals vat people can and do give short notice ( 14 days ) to see the books with up to date VAT records .
This gem can pop us any time say in August when your staff or you accountants staff are on hols .
The stress hanging over while it’s looked at , then argued back n forth is something you need to think about carefully.

It has to be a real charter set up not a “faux “ one .If they find out for example it’s been let say 6 weeks in the season and 5 of those ( even thought transparent bank details of correct rate payments) are from your family........ expect major hassle from both sets of authorities hounding you because it’s a “ faux “ charter Co .
It might not be your intention or you fault it’s only had 1 ( or what ever ) punter .

If real the boats bashed with effects the residuals and you should have an exit plan like dispose it in x months .
It not really or doesn’t feel like your personal boat
Anyhow food for thought .

They say a pic paints a 1000 words
I,ll leave you with this image

 

[jrudge]

It has been asked many times before.

I don't think that by the time you have

- paid to code it
- paid additional insurance
- paid for crew
- paid the charter agent
- paid higher than expected repair costs as it come in at 10 and it HAS TO BE FIXED for 5pm .... please ...
- taken a depreciation hit from higher engine hours and daft generator hours ( Boats.co.uk princess 72 had done 400 engine hours a few weeks ago and I can't recall but I think he said 1000 gen hours and the season is not over. They were servicing it mid season due to hours
- paid real charter rates for you to use it
- deferred your holiday as there is a punter willing to pay £30k a week for your boat, or only the off season hols as the season is short

That is it likely to stack up that much.

I have heard a comment from someone in the know that making money ( at any level) on a new boat is far harder than on a second hand one.

Re brand - punters want sun seekers and princesses and won't have heard of Pearl.

You might make it work but it is a lot of hassle for an uncertain return on your pride and joy.

 

[MRC]

It does and can work.

The biggest variable is price paid for the boat and price boat sells for in x number of years.

As mentioned in OP buying a 3-5 year old Princess or SS well then it works. Paying list at the boat show for a new one and being told by the charter agents to charter to cover costs generally doesn’t work.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

What’s everyone think? Should I go with the Sunseeker / Princess safe option or try Pearl? Should I go new or second hand? Should I be looking at something else entirely, I’ve limited knowledge of the non UK brands.

There is no doubt that Sunseeker and Princess are the safe options so far as British brands go. Pearls are OK and look good inside but they dont have the brand image that Sunseeker and Princess have plus they've had a few high profile issues in the past so they might be more difficult to sell on when you want rid. As for other brands around the 70ft mark, there are a number of Italian manufacturers well worth looking at such as Azimut, Ferretti, Canados and San Lorenzo to name a few. My last 3 secondhand boats have been Ferrettis and I really like them. There is one UK brand you havent mentioned and that is Fairline. Their Sq78 is well worth a look

My boat buying strategy used to be buy at 5yrs old and sell at 10yrs old although I've stretched that recently. Basically a 5yr old boat should still look like new if it is well looked after plus it should have had all its niggling new boat problems sorted so IMHO represents a good buy. After 10yrs you may start getting major maintenance issues but that does depend on the initial build quality of the boat

With regard to chartering, it really does need to be a stand-alone commercial operation which, if it is a UK based business, must look to HMRC as if its a proper business. In other words it has to show income and look as though it might make a profit. In addition, you must respect all local laws relating to charter operations with regard to coding, VAT, accounts etc. Yes plenty of boat owners do it for a variety of reasons, particularly with larger boats, but I do wonder whether the charter income ever exceeds the cost of crew, the extra maintenance costs and above all, the extra depreciation. Think carefully before you do this. Maybe it would be far less hassle to buy a cheaper boat you can afford to own and run and that you can use at your leisure?

 

[chrisgil]

Depending on how much time you want to spend on board why not think about purchasing a boatshare?
We used to own a boat which We chartered to help defray costs and would agree with previous contributors, lots of hassle not least vat returns etc. So very marginal benefit and still can’t always use when you want.
We now have a boatshare in 22m in Puerto portals, turn up to an immaculate boat, full of fuel, clean linen etc. All ready to go with full time skipper. Much reduced capital outlay and maintenance costs. What’s not to like. OK, we can’t just turn up on a whim, have to plan trips well in advance and can’t always get the weeks we want. But Mallorca in November can be surprisingly nice!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

We now have a boatshare in 22m in Puerto portals, turn up to an immaculate boat, full of fuel, clean linen etc. All ready to go with full time skipper. Much reduced capital outlay and maintenance costs. What’s not to like. OK, we can’t just turn up on a whim, have to plan trips well in advance and can’t always get the weeks we want. But Mallorca in November can be surprisingly nice!

Thats interesting because boat share is something that might interest us in the future. Any other downsides apart from not being able to use it when you want?

 

[chrisgil]

So far not that many to be honest other than we tend mostly to get single weeks unless we make arrangements with other owners. So far I have not been able to do that although got close this autumn! As a consequence it is more difficult to do longer trips as we have to be back at home port at end of the week, again unless separate arrangements can be made to meet up elsewhere ( haven’t yet been stuck due to weather or breakdown issues so not sure what happens then. Assuming somewhere in Mallorca then just a longer taxi ride!)
I guess if money not object we would have our own boat but would still only use for 6/8 weeks a year which is what we do now, just not at ideal times.

 

[Jumunu]

Boatshare is interesting although my worry is about how you get back out? Is their a market down the line to sell or are you potentially locked in to a boat (and the costs associated with it). I suppose it solves one of the other reasons to charter a boat out......if not use it for say 6 weeks of a year which makes it feel like an unused asset......and potentially paying a crew to do not a lot.

 

[Bajansailor]

Jumunu, these folk appear to make a reasonable living as brokers selling fractional shares in yachts, so you should hopefully be able to sell come the time that you want to get out of your share (?)
https://yacht-fractions.co.uk/

 

[petem]

Thats interesting because boat share is something that might interest us in the future. Any other downsides apart from not being able to use it when you want?

Actually, on a small syndicate, like ours, availability is a non issue.

The two other downsides are....

1) Location - either you have an agreement that all co-owners need to agree before the location of the boat is changed or you have a majority rule. Either way, someone might be unhappy.

2) Insurance - I've seen one case where a charter boat was struggling to get insurance due to previous losses. On a dearer boat with a loss making marine finance industry I could envisage insurers starting to load premiums or refuse to cover to syndicated boats (unless they are professionally skippered).

 

[petem]

Boatshare is interesting although my worry is about how you get back out? Is their a market down the line to sell or are you potentially locked in to a boat (and the costs associated with it).

There's definitely a market for reselling yacht shares (I'm in the process of selling a share in out boat).

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I guess if money not object we would have our own boat but would still only use for 6/8 weeks a year which is what we do now, just not at ideal times.

Thats been my problem. In 16yrs in the Med the maximum number of nights we have ever spent on board in a calendar year is 42 and we normally average 30-40. This year we'll be lucky to do 20 nights on board for various reasons and for the amount that I spend keeping and maintaining the boat in Antibes, it would have been cheaper to spend those 20 nights in the best hotel on the Riviera

 

[BartW]

Thats interesting because boat share is something that might interest us in the future. Any other downsides apart from not being able to use it when you want?

Actually, on a small syndicate, like ours, availability is a non issue.

The two other downsides are....

1) Location - either you have an agreement that all co-owners need to agree before the location of the boat is changed or you have a majority rule. Either way, someone might be unhappy.

2) Insurance - I've seen one case where a charter boat was struggling to get insurance due to previous losses. On a dearer boat with a loss making marine finance industry I could envisage insurers starting to load premiums or refuse to cover to syndicated boats (unless they are professionally skippered).

two more downsides (for us at least)

-we have totally adapted our 70ft boat to our needs, put many items, watertoys, games, tools, spareparts, dive gear, cleaning and maintenance stuff, .... in spicific places, our boat is totally stuffed with it, only swmbo and myself know where something sits, and we're quite organised in all this and enhances pleasure when staying onboard
(impossible to keep tidy with multiple owners)

-all our boating clothes stay onboard, after these years quite some garderobe ;-)

but we feel very fortunate to be able to use the boat enough,
today finishing a nearly 8 weeks full time stay onboard,
we both enjoyed every minute of it, but are now happy to see soon the grandchilderen again ;-)
and friday back to work, that will be tough.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

but we feel very fortunate to be able to use the boat enough,
today finishing a nearly 8 weeks full time stay onboard,
we both enjoyed every minute of it, but are now happy to see soon the grandchilderen again ;-)
and friday back to work, that will be tough.

You seem to have your life ordered a lot better than the rest of us! Have you had a good season? Where have you been this year?

 

[petem]

Thats been my problem. In 16yrs in the Med the maximum number of nights we have ever spent on board in a calendar year is 42 and we normally average 30-40. This year we'll be lucky to do 20 nights on board for various reasons and for the amount that I spend keeping and maintaining the boat in Antibes, it would have been cheaper to spend those 20 nights in the best hotel on the Riviera

Blimey Mike, I'm expecting 35 days on board this year and that's as a salaried employee (with limited leave) on a modest and shared boat!

 

[BartW]

You seem to have your life ordered a lot better than the rest of us! Have you had a good season? Where have you been this year?

we had a wonderfull season here in the south of sardegna, commute a couple of times between Cagliari and Carloforte, and discovered most anchorages around CF. Last week we also discovered cape Carbonara and marina Villasimius intensively, very nice at 28°C and extremely clear water as you know.
In very good company from the locals ;-) aswell as our family and friends
Just confirmed the berth for coming winter again in Portus Karalis Cagliari.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Blimey Mike, I'm expecting 35 days on board this year and that's as a salaried employee (with limited leave) on a modest and shared boat!

Pete, this was a slightly unusual boating year for us. Some domestic matters intervened earlier in the year and then, instead of spending our main holiday on the boat, we went on a cruise to Norway instead because we had a credit from the cruise line to use up. The other thing is that businesses dont run themselves especially in the current political climate. Bart must have some very good staff to be able to take 8 weeks off from his business!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

we had a wonderfull season here in the south of sardegna, commute a couple of times between Cagliari and Carloforte, and discovered most anchorages around CF. Last week we also discovered cape Carbonara and marina Villasimius intensively, very nice at 28°C and extremely clear water as you know.
In very good company from the locals ;-) aswell as our family and friends
Just confirmed the berth for coming winter again in Portus Karalis Cagliari.

Pleased to hear that. It is such a lovely cruising area and I can see us returning to CF in the future ourselves

 

[petem]

Pete, this was a slightly unusual boating year for us. Some domestic matters intervened earlier in the year and then, instead of spending our main holiday on the boat, we went on a cruise to Norway instead because we had a credit from the cruise line to use up. The other thing is that businesses dont run themselves especially in the current political climate.

Fair enough Mike, I hope things get onto a more even keel for you in 2020.

Bart must have some very good staff to be able to take 8 weeks off from his business!

It's a lot easier when your business is based in a country that isn't trying to destroy itself.