Navel knots or should that be nits

deborahann

deborahann

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Went to Fleetwood today, & delighted to see the usually deserted boating lake, with boats on it, & people being apparently trained in boat skills for "Navel officers" for the future.

Three potential officers sat in the yatcht, as I was talking to the instructer I noticed it was still tied up at the front. The instructer was saying "I want you to go to starboard, then port, round this and that". Nothing happened, the Navel officers did forward jerking movements, thought, no point in that you are still tied up. Then the instructer noticed they were tied up, tried to un tie the granny knot, said who's done this, one of the Navel officers admitted it, the trainer flew inside for a knife and cut the, well actually bit of string that was left dangling in the water as they set off.

Made my day
 
They also had an old life boat, up on davits, the future bridge officers and captains would get in and it would go down with a splosh, then tour round the lake before hitting it's berth with a big clang. Then the procedure started all over again.

Between the sailing dinghies and life boat, it was complete carnage.

The bit where the dinghy was still tied up, whilst the "0fficers" hutched up and down, to make it move, was absolutely hilarious.

So my advice, if you ever get on another ship.

ASk......Were you taught in Fleetwood.:eek:
 
Cor, that brings back memories of doing my Anchor badge for the Sea Scouts in the very early 60's. We were at HMS Eaglet, Salthouse Dock (which was still in use for merchant shipping at the time).

Swim 50 yards, name & identify 50 parts of a boat, coil a rope & cast it 25 yards (at a target), man a 5-oared whaler (we were all young teenagers) following proper naval orders, coming alongside, steering without rudder etc. Lifejackets? nah, but we used to sit on WD surplus kapok mae-wests so we could reach the oars. All done under the eagle eye of RNVR occifers who had had wartime experience. Damned hard work, but I really enjoyed it & learnt a lot that I can still use everyday on the boat.
 
Apparently it was a bit of R&R for the students, but also to make them aware, of what it was like for little boats, so good stuff really. WE are'nt really knocking them, just imagining this lot with a super tanker. Imagining thruching up and down to make it move!!

Theres an interesting film some where, where captains are taught with toy super tankers on a lake with channels and stuff. The captain sits there in his six foot super tanker and goes through the ropes. It's very funny to watch, but I'm sure there is a serious side.
 
It could be possible for some Master class 1's (unlimited,foreign-going etc.) to have little exposure to small boats and their characteristics.
Starting as cadets (18) at maritime college, moving from ship to ship over the years, possibly viewing boating as just work.
I've certainly seen examples in my time, mind you, even the worst example would cope better with small boat issues, than I would operating a super tanker!
 
hlb said:
Apparently it was a bit of R&R for the students, but also to make them aware, of what it was like for little boats, so good stuff really. WE are'nt really knocking them, just imagining this lot with a super tanker. Imagining thruching up and down to make it move!!

Theres an interesting film some where, where captains are taught with toy super tankers on a lake with channels and stuff. The captain sits there in his six foot super tanker and goes through the ropes. It's very funny to watch, but I'm sure there is a serious side.
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I've did that course 30 years ago at Marchwood near Southampton (there is similar training around the world) as part of my training for Pilot (Class1). After practical experience on little vessels (Class 4 upwards) this course is extremely useful as part of the final training.

After initial scepticism, and within 1 hour of taking control, you are sweating as you realise that the vessels are perfectly scaled and the reaction both to engine commands and rudder inputs (time delays and affects) is scarily real. The vessels are about 40/60' long and ballasted to represent the type required (20,000 t Container, 200,000 t tanker etc.)

The idea is that you can try various manoeuvres (including those where received wisdom says don't do it), see the results and attempt different methods of getting out of the subsequent pickle.

The effects of interaction between two vessels and between a vessel and a river bank or shoal depth (squat) is easily demonstrated and the value is not only that the operators gain knowledge but the other members of the course watch from the bank. Video is also used for analysis later.

This videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oRB2Y-POP0 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRdylnz6dKk&NR=1 demonstrate interaction between vessels passing in opposite directions in a channel. I'm sure there are others out there.

Unfortunately the computerised standard bridge simulator cannot provide this experience or training.

The teaching radio is high (1 instructor to 2 students) and so the cost is high - IIRC about £20k/student for the week.

Tom
 
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nonitoo said:
I've did that course 30 years ago at Marchwood near Southampton (there is similar training around the world) as part of my training for Pilot (Class1). After practical experience on little vessels (Class 4 upwards) this course is extremely useful as part of the final training.

After initial scepticism, and within 1 hour of taking control, you are sweating as you realise that the vessels are perfectly scaled and the reaction both to engine commands and rudder inputs (time delays and affects) is scarily real. The vessels are about 40/60' long and ballasted to represent the type required (20,000 t Container, 200,000 t tanker etc.)

The idea is that you can try various manoeuvres (including those where received wisdom says don't do it), see the results and attempt different methods of getting out of the subsequent pickle.

The effects of interaction between two vessels and between a vessel and a river bank or shoal depth (squat) is easily demonstrated and the value is not only that the operators gain knowledge but the other members of the course watch from the bank. Video is also used for analysis later.

This videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oRB2Y-POP0 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRdylnz6dKk&NR=1 demonstrate interaction between vessels passing in opposite directions in a channel. I'm sure there are others out there.

Unfortunately the computerised standard bridge simulator cannot provide this experience or training.

The teaching radio is high (1 instructor to 2 students) and so the cost is high - IIRC about £20k/student for the week.

Tom
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Sounds to me more like they were doing the first part of a practical teaching lesson for Lifeboat Cert
 
mjf said:
Sounds to me more like they were doing the first part of a practical teaching lesson for Lifeboat Cert
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In the first YouTube example you hear the captain allow the bow to very slowly swing towards the approaching vessel by giving port helm orders in order that, when the interacting pressure waves affect the ships, this results in the bows being pushed apart after passing, necessitating further port helm orders after they pass to steady the ship.

In this case it is exacerbated buy the slow moving tanker adding to the repelling effect.

In a narrow channel if you do not anticipate this effect by turning into the approaching ship you will end up aground as the swing induced by vessel interaction can prove impossible to catch if not anticipated.

These effects are mainly felt when passing within half a beam width of each other, common in a narrow channel, and are minimised by increasing power (half or full ahead) to increase the vessel's rudder effect (extra thrust without yet increasing speed) and delay/reduce the transverse swing.

Hope this is not too anoraky.

Tom
 
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mjf said:
We are at cross purposes - I am well aware of the marchwood and Grenobe handling courses. What the poster saw was Fleetwood nautical College students having a L/B lesson seems to me
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Oops, sorry, yes that seems about right as regards the OP, loads of fun, everyone gets wet and hopefully everyone learns a little as a bonus.

Tom
 
deborahann said:
Went to Fleetwood today, & delighted to see ... people being apparently trained in boat skills for "Navel officers" for the future.

Then the instructer noticed they were tied up, tried to un tie the granny knot, said who's done this, one of the Navel officers admitted it, ...Made my day
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Fleetwood seems a bit of a long way for them to go for a day's boating, considering that all Naval Officer basic training happens at Dartmouth -- and especially considering that Britannia College there has a pretty good sized fleet of assorted boats.

And how do you use a Granny knot to tie a boat up? Mind you, if they were Merchant Navy cadets, I'm sure they would find a way ;) (Ducking and running for cover!)
 
timbartlett said:
Fleetwood seems a bit of a long way for them to go for a day's boating, considering that all Naval Officer basic training happens at Dartmouth -- and especially considering that Britannia College there has a pretty good sized fleet of assorted boats.

And how do you use a Granny knot to tie a boat up? Mind you, if they were Merchant Navy cadets, I'm sure they would find a way ;) (Ducking and running for cover!)
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Blackpool & Fylde Nautical College (part of lancaster Uni) so not very far to go at all. And they are MN.
 
And how do you use a Granny knot to tie a boat up? Mind you, if they were Merchant Navy cadets, I'm sure they would find a way (Ducking and running for cover!)

Dunno, you'd better ask the MN instructor, at the address given above.
 
timbartlett said:
As I said ... a long way from the Naval college at Dartmouth. ;)
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Stop being so bloody pedantic. There training them to sail ships., Deborahs been to Dartmouth many, many times and knows all about it.

The MN is largely taught at Fleetwood. So theres hardly any traveling at all. There may have been a slight slip of words, but who looks the numpty.
 
And how do you use a Granny knot to tie a boat up? Mind you, if they were Merchant Navy cadets, I'm sure they would find a way.

Tim, you obviously ain't met many of today's Naval Orficers.
 
timbartlett said:
As I said ... a long way from the Naval college at Dartmouth. ;)
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Of course I am biased, having spent my entire career in the MN in one form or another, but it is always interesting when people make comparisons between the RN and MN.

The inference is that the RN are 'proper' seafarers and the MN some sort of rag tag bunch.

While both have a seafaring base the RN officer spends a tiny amount of time actually at sea compared to the MN officer.

I make nothing of this because the two career paths are completely different and have little in common at all. I doubt if either group would be able, or want, to transfer to the other easily. Years ago, when we had liaison officers working both ways, RN->MN and MN->RN, neither were particularly comfortable in the other's environment although most found the experience interesting.

Stating the obvious, the RN is a defence organisation and the MN is a commercial operation, with all the different training needs this entails.

Nowadays the skill level of the MN rating is low because there is no need to pay high wages to someone who is really a maintenance operative, there is little traditional seamanship involved on deck on a modern merchant ship.

The MN deck officers are trained in seamanship, skills of navigation, cargo operation and in the more senior certificates, ship management, budgetary control, commercial awareness, basic engineering and the legal side of operating a ship and accepting and carrying cargo.

These are more specialised, and narrower, skill sets compared to an RN officer who will probably have to deal with a much wider set of requirements and situations. In my experience the RN officers have a much wider set of skills and, let's be frank, are drawn from a different group from the MN officers. It is a damn sight harder to get into Dartmouth than join the MN.

In reality I have found there to be a mutual respect between the two services when they have come together, accompanied by the usual badinage of course.

The careers are as different as chalk and cheese with the only common feature being that water is involved.

Tom
 
nonitoo said:
In reality I have found there to be a mutual respect between the two services when they have come together, accompanied by the usual badinage of course.
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"Mutual respect"

"usual badinage"

Exactly so.
 
well I can only go off what the instructer advised me he was doing. He said who did this granny knot, one of the naval or daft lot in the boat, doing the forward jerking movements to go, said, urrm I've done it. It was a bit of a laugh, the instructer advised who he was training, maybe he was wrong, or I've not got it right. BUT it was meant as a bit of light entertainment as to what was going on. Not much else sorry to say on MBY. I'll get me coat !
 
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