Natural Englandrespondsto freedom of information request about Studland.

[oldharry]

A formal FOI requesthas been made to NE asking for the basis of their assessment that Studland eelgrass requires 'recovery', the official term in the reports for a feature that is degraded and needs active management to restore it.

A !engthy reply was received which revealed two things:

Firstly the assessment was based solely on 'expert opinion' and not on actual observation or assessment. In brief, this means that they know that seagrass is vulnerable to anchoring, which it is. People anchor ometimes 'quite intensively'. Therefore seagrass in the Bay must be degraded, so recovery must be required.


Secondly this methodology does not comply with government requirements, which require the best available data should be used in detailed assessment. Clearly NE are using two standards which are not compatible. We have already raised this with them and have challenged the assessment.

Is this Important? Yes, very. Recovery status in an MCZ requires action to be taken to protect the feature which in Studland would mean restrictions or even no go areas, and EFMs. If the eelgrass is graded Maintain, as it should be, then other than monitoring its condition, no further action is needed, and more importantly, no funding will be allocated for protection.

If necessary we will take it forward to a formal challenge, but judging from the latest reply we have them worried!

 

[Concerto]

Well done. Expert opinion is not very scientific, so they should look at the evidence on the sea beds. This you have done with photographs going back decades, and contradicts the expert opinion.

 

[Boathook]

Thanks oldharry for posting and even carrying on with this. Thanks should also go to Galadriel, Searush and MarlynSpyke who have done work / posting as well.

 

[bedouin]

Well done - keep up the good work?

I am not sure about the status of NE - can you take them to Judicial Review?

 

[oldharry]

Well done - keep up the good work?

I am not sure about the status of NE - can you take them to Judicial Review?

Not clear yet, but we could certainly challenge DEFRA if they try to recommend law based on flawed advice. Might need a bit of legal expertise if push comes to shove.

90% of the problems at Studland have come from self proclaimed 'experts' making such scientific pronouncements as 'I've seen it. Its happening' without a shred of even observational evidence to back it! Unfortunately it now seems that NE are hoping to slip this through using anonymous experts hidden somewhere on the 23rd floor of NE towers....

The press will jump to scandalous stories of wealthy yotties wrecking the environment, as we well know. ' Anchors not actually causing damage' doesn't get past editorial veto. Ever. Its not news.

 

[bedouin]

In fact if they respond to FOI then you can almost certainly JR them - can be a very powerful tool but you would want good legal advice and that doesn't come cheap. Seems they also come under the Parliamentary Ombudsman but I don't know if he is much use.

 

[Sea-Fever]

Well done and thanks for the work so far. Really valuable.

 

[doug748]

The press will jump to scandalous stories of wealthy yotties wrecking the environment, as we well know. ' Anchors not actually causing damage' doesn't get past editorial veto. Ever. Its not news.

Yes, the press are not interested in the truth but in stories, they are lazy. They see a form of words and fit it into their present world view. We see this all the time.
If the president of America gave his personal fortune to the Little Sisters of Mercy the headlines would read: "President Bribes Virgin Girls!"

One way might be to write the story for them and put in under their nose. Some newspapers have no love for "experts", the Mail and Express when it suits them.
The angle is, that the experts are bullying and misleading us by taking short cuts and presenting bad science. From what I can see this has the advantage of being the truth.
"Fake Science Threatens to Take the Seaside From Us" - Could well be the heading of a press release, when the time is apposite.

Great work by the way.

 

[moomba]

First to read about this and find it very interesting, was not going to reply but the OP makes a flaw in their argument in regards to the Expert not doing a detailed assessment.
The expert does not need to make an assessment ,if their field of study is along these parameters as they have gained expert knowledge on this particular subject ,therefore can make a reasonable assumption to what is happening at this site with great confidence in accuracy ,using inference data from other studies.
My Wife is A Doctor of Fresh Water Ecology so ran this past her to make sure , her response was
if you dont know how much damage is been done best not do it ,
but thats an ecologist for you I need to treat slugs with respect or I get it !

 

[moomba]

Oh read some more responses in regards to your photos and years of looking at the seagrass , this data in not worth much as it was not scientifically done , i.e randomised areas , transect lines etc and data was not correlated , with other sites , I do not wish to argue with this but be careful in regards to fighting the experts they will always win , the country a a whole are getting more focused on conservation and a healthy balance needs to be approached , as we are only here for a short time and must pass on to our children the wonders of the planet.
also if you look at this matter further there have been studies carried out on seahorse population on this area and they have found them to be in major decline , sea grass habitats are used for many nursery habitats for other wildlife of the sea and can create a cascade effect if anyone of these are effected in the food web
I am not against dropping my anchor but if there is an alternative solution which helps protect the environment then this must be the way forward

 

[Tranona]

Oh read some more responses in regards to your photos and years of looking at the seagrass , this data in not worth much as it was not scientifically done , i.e randomised areas , transect lines etc and data was not correlated , with other sites , I do not wish to argue with this but be careful in regards to fighting the experts they will always win , the country a a whole are getting more focused on conservation and a healthy balance needs to be approached , as we are only here for a short time and must pass on to our children the wonders of the planet.
also if you look at this matter further there have been studies carried out on seahorse population on this area and they have found them to be in major decline , sea grass habitats are used for many nursery habitats for other wildlife of the sea and can create a cascade effect if anyone of these are effected in the food web
I am not against dropping my anchor but if there is an alternative solution which helps protect the environment then this must be the way forward

You are getting near the heart of the problem, which is that the "experts" are NOT experts at all, but publicity seeking charlatans. The claim that seahorse population is in decline is just nonsense for 2 reasons. Firstly the numbers involved are extremely small and secondly the observations come from basically 2 people who only looked at a very small area - simply because most of the time it is actually only one person.

The second issue that is flawed is whether this fluctuation in numbers is linked to the level of anchoring, and whether anchoring is the cause of changes in the beds. It is this aspect that BORG has concentrated on because there is ample evidence that suggests the beds have grown and are in good condition - hence the pressure to get them classified as "maintain" rather than "recovery".

In reality not sure the cuddly seahorse will have much influence on the decision - despite its appeal in the press and on TV as the habitat is consider important for a whole load of other reasons.

 

[moomba]

Yes the argument will always continue but we have seen the effects of non dredging zone as and the cascade effect of habitat reforming your argument has flaws as, in regards to sea horses they are protected species and therefore need to be protected now dropping an anchor excessivelyy I would imagine causes signicat damage to habitat and natural England's so called experts will have more data available to them than what we read in papers or freedom of information requests, the statistical analysis alone will include large data sets which will have been put through R

 

[GrahamD]

Yes the argument will always continue but we have seen the effects of non dredging zone as and the cascade effect of habitat reforming your argument has flaws as, in regards to sea horses they are protected species and therefore need to be protected now dropping an anchor excessivelyy I would imagine causes signicat damage to habitat and natural England's so called experts will have more data available to them than what we read in papers or freedom of information requests, the statistical analysis alone will include large data sets which will have been put through R

Could you revise your punctuation so we have a chance of understanding what you are saying

 

[Heckler]

Could you revise your punctuation so we have a chance of understanding what you are saying

Indeed! Trying to understand the words but am I right in thinking that he is accepting the self proclaimed experts words? If so he needs to do due diligance on them first!

 

[Boathook]

Yes the argument will always continue but we have seen the effects of non dredging zone as and the cascade effect of habitat reforming your argument has flaws as, in regards to sea horses they are protected species and therefore need to be protected now dropping an anchor excessivelyy I would imagine causes signicat damage to habitat and natural England's so called experts will have more data available to them than what we read in papers or freedom of information requests, the statistical analysis alone will include large data sets which will have been put through R

If we go back 20 years the eel grass was a lot less than now. The eel grass seems to have grown as more boats have anchored at Studland. I get the impression that the so called experts aren't experts, except at sitting in an office and writing reports to justify their existence !

 

[Seajet]

Thanks oldharry for posting and even carrying on with this. Thanks should also go to Galadriel, Searush and MarlynSpyke who have done work / posting as well.

Ahem,

moi was the one who suggested us getting together in the first place going on the discoveries by - then Galdiel, Old Harry and Squaerepants Bob.

Old Harry has since worked tirelessly over huge reams of bumph paperwork and attending meetings fully armed - if anyone deserves an OBE he does.

I preferred a more direct approach trying to awake boat owners to this ongoing threat to our freedoms and safe anchorage so left BORG some time ago, but I'd like to think we remain friends with a common cause.

It is interesting that the Studland Bay locals, who one might have expected to want to shoo away yachts and keep it exclusive, have shown nothing but support for BORG and scorn for the ' Seahorse Trust ' - all one of him with dubious ( to put it kindly ) data he refuses to release, but still willing to grab the money of an uninformed public responding to his propaganda - I still wonder if this is in any way legal.

 

[moomba]

Re: Natural Englandrespondsto freedom of information request about Stuneralgicodland.

Could you revise your punctuation so we have a chance of understanding what you are saying

Hi Graham sorry for the punctuation I suffer from a serious neurological disease which in fact labels me disabled, some time this affects the way I reply to these forums , not that I should justify this nor did you know but I dont believe anyone truly writes to not make sense , so please be aware of this as you type away on your computer and make either sarcastic comments or using a way to try and get one upman ship on some one , as the other person might not be as whole as you.
now if you rely read hard you will get what I am saying , in that A. seahorses are a protected species. there will be a large number data sets included in this study , other studies around the UK have shown that by not destroying habitat, species diversity flourish which has a Hugh cascade effect on the rest of the flora and fauna not just in the bay, but will diverge outside , now as I said before I own a boat and anchor but if there is an alternative way, or I am told I can no longer anchor somewhere but mooring buoys are provided them I think this is a very sensible solution.
I am no expert in Ecology but my wife is and before I Became ill I was a marine biologist, so have a little knowledge on the subject matter , but there must always be a way in which we work with nature for all to enjoy .
Now I have proof read this a few times so if there is still mistakes I apologies to Graham

 

[moomba]

If we go back 20 years the eel grass was a lot less than now. The eel grass seems to have grown as more boats have anchored at Studland. I get the impression that the so called experts aren't experts, except at sitting in an office and writing reports to justify their existence !

Utter nonsense my wife studyed for 8 years to become a so called expert there is so much more to understanding a habitat that just simply observation when and if you became a Dr in your chosen field or a professor then you can challenge these experts , but statements like the eel grass was a lot less know means nothing , what about its nutritional value , does it display the right chemical analysis before pollution got worse , come on people the world is not one big conspiracy,

 

[Seajet]

So let's ignore the fact the eelgrass is thriving, and has increased massilvely since the 1930's aerial recce' photo's by the Luftwaffe...

The past and present members of BORG have put a lot of detailed study into this over years; the main conclusion is twofold;

A ,Seahorses are thriving all over the south coast, but in many commercial ports and marinas people keep quiet as they are worried about being closed down for a survey etc;

B, Seahorses are seen as a money-spinner by some people who use very questionable advertising and claims with no backup in order to fund a nice lifestyle ' working ' on what just happens to be one of Britains' best beaches...

 

[doug748]

"....when and if you became a Dr in your chosen field or a professor then you can challenge these experts .... "



I am starting to think there is a niff of trollery about this thread.