MPs meet with BMF/RYA

On at least two occasions I asked for, and got, information regarding safety boats in competitions. I also got my ICC free, well I had paid the subscription.

If you use them then they are there.
 
So, are they supposed to ignore them? or march up Whitehall with banners?

As to benefit, where does his ICC come from, and who was instrumental in establishing the SSR to satisfy the needs of the French?
 
Well, if you were a member you would find useful explanations of its position on current issues from the member's magazine.

I will agree (partly) with one thing on your list of sins, and that is the position re HMRC and VAT. However, in reality there is little it can do for two reasons. Firstly it is very difficult to argue with a Government agency when it states that it does not believe there is any need for a change in the law or the regulations. If there is pressure for change then it only comes in one of two ways. The first is to gain political support to bring changes before Parliament (a la Joanna Lumley and Ghurkas) and the second to challenge in the courts. To do this one has to have a case where somebody has been charged with an offence and the defence is a challenge of the law. If successful this sets a precedent. As there does not seem to have been any cases of private individuals being charged with an offence of having a boat without evidence of VAT, nor an individual being charged VAT on a boat where he was not responsible for accounting for it (for example a purchaser of a second hand boat in a private transaction). There is also no concrete evidence that people are being routinely asked to provide VAT evidence regarding their boats.

So, nobody is suffering under an unjust law, nor is being wrongly accused of an offence, so there is no need to mount any challenge. This does not, of course deal with the uncertainty people feel about the issue, nor does it help those who are refused finance on a boat because of the lack of an unecessary document. However, our complex society is full of ambiguities and inconsistenies, partly the result of our Common Law principles and partly because our legislators often make a hash of the fine details of statute.
 
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One huge problem is that many of the general public who are now eligible to vote were not old enough to experience the mess that the Consevatives got us into at the end of Thatcher Governments.
The rest seem to have very short memories!

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Well I'm old enough to remember it and young enough not to have forgotten it and it certainly wasn't as bad as this. The worst times were the winter of dis-content, black-outs, 3 day week, etc. and that was solved by a Tory government rather than caused by it. Wilson, Callaghan - yep they bought this country to it's knees too....
 
Answers:

1/ quite possible that the government werent interested. Sailing is viewed in Labour circles in much the same way as hunting - a posh middle class sport for what several posters call "the blue blazers". And since NuLabour is still fighting the class war, when indeed they are not fighting each other, they arent much interested.
2/ Of course they do, but you use as many routes as you can. And its important to talk to opposition because on such issues as E borders the govt has made up its mind years ago. Governments want to talk to representative bodies - they arent interested in talking to individuals or self appointed pressure groups. So when they want to talk about coastal access for example, the civil servants talk to the RYA to the RSPB, the Ramblers etc.
3/ How do you attract people to a lobby meeting? You get a speaker that interests them, you provide nibbles, you do it at a convenient time etc etc. Do you really think you can command a minister to appear and get harrassed in public? The BBC have enough difficulty getting ministers to appear on things like the Politics show on TV - 9 times out of 10 they wont come.

Some realism is required here. The best the RYA can do is offer advice on how some proposed law will affect boaters. What the govt then decides can be very different. For example it was alleged by someone in a position to know that yotties were excluded from the proposed booze laws following the report on the marchioness accident but this was overturned by 2 Jags ( ex ships steward) on the basis that "we're not letting rich yacht owners away with that". A piece of classic class envy. So how does the RYA fight that?
 
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On at least two occasions I asked for, and got, information regarding safety boats in competitions. I also got my ICC free, well I had paid the subscription.

If you use them then they are there.

[/ QUOTE ]I rest my case......racing again.... where is the overt activity for cruising sailors?... and a free ICC..... well whoopy do!...... it's hardly a major achievement for a 'governing body' is it?
 
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Do you really think you can command a minister to appear and get harrassed in public?

[/ QUOTE ] Well - not personally, but ministers should make themselves available to "representative bodies" as otherwise we might as well have a load of ostriches in government...
Surely it is a ministers DUTY to listen to various lobby groups and they shouldn't have to be tempted to come along by some other distraction.

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on the basis that "we're not letting rich yacht owners away with that". A piece of classic class envy. So how does the RYA fight that?

[/ QUOTE ] With every tooth and nail it has - publicity mainly - yes there are a lot of "rich yachties" ... but there are a heck of a lot more who sail on a shoestring budget - they're just not as noticable ...

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Some realism is required here. The best the RYA can do is offer advice on how some proposed law will affect boaters.

[/ QUOTE ] Well - there isn't much point in having the RYA - if the "best they can do" is offer advice ... we could get a couple of solicitors to do that and it would be far cheaper.
 
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Well - there isn't much point in having the RYA - if the "best they can do" is offer advice ... we could get a couple of solicitors to do that and it would be far cheaper.

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What, with maritime solicitors charging rates starting at £300 per hour, certainly not cheaper. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I tend to think of it as who do we distrust the least. I wouldn't trust a Tory with his expenses but I'd probably partially trust his competence to run the country (if he ran his own business or had done). In general I wouldn't trust any Labour politician's ability to actually run the country. Sweeping generalisations and, like everyone seems to be, I'm clutching at straws to to find something positive in any of them.

I can cope with ludicrous expenses if they're doing a good job but they're bloody c**p in oppostion and government, all of them.
 
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One huge problem is that many of the general public who are now eligible to vote were not old enough to experience the mess that the Consevatives got us into at the end of Thatcher Governments.
The rest seem to have very short memories!

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That is simply not true. The country was actually being run very well. It was the silly antics on one or two minor MPs who brought the government down on "Moral Grounds" the one thing we can thank TB for was that he refused to allow any of his ministers resign for reasons relating to their personal life.
 
The problem with this meeting is that the number on issue os e-borders not the Olympics. If I was running the RYA I would threaten the Govern with cancellation of the Olympic sailing events if they don't take the problem of e-borders seriously.

E-borders is going to ruin our sport and it is another way to criminalise the middle classes. We are and the traffic police know it , a soft target and a great way to hit target. Any vessel carrying only British Passport holders should be exempt from e-borders regulations. I do not think my movements are the business of anyone whether I go to Alderney or Manchester. Why should I tell the government 24 hours in advance that I am leaving the country? We need less government not more.

I am looking forward to the time in my life when I don't have a mobile phone, computer or television. Wouldn't is be bliss.
 
well I certainly agree with your sentiments as far as e-borders go but I can never forgive the Tories for me having to do two jobs as a teacher and barman to keep house and home afloat due to them letting the economy get into such a mess. What was the rate of inflation at its worst.... or can't you remember? They didn't have the banks and the mortgage companies to blame for that, just their own arrogance and incompetance.
 
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The problem with this meeting is that the number on issue os e-borders not the Olympics. If I was running the RYA I would threaten the Govern with cancellation of the Olympic sailing events if they don't take the problem of e-borders seriously.



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got to give it to you - never thought of that one! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

but given that even the NUM got beaten down when they threatened the govt ( and hearing one chap was murdered today by muslim nutters cos the govt, quite rightly, wouldnt bend) I doubt the RYA's threat would work. lets be fair who cares a damn whether we have a sailing team at the olympics, or even have the olympics?

were I a member of the RYA I would object in the strongest terms to that sort of yobbish behaviour, and were the govt ever to give way to such threats I would very definitely vote against them. I'd be interested to hear if others thought that sort of approach was OK.
 
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I can never forgive the Tories for me having to do two jobs as a teacher and barman to keep house and home afloat

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If you're not happy with the pay, go get another job. Its the way the market works.
 
I don't disagree as vociferously as you, but yes, I do agree, its a rather inappropriate approach....

I'd rather the RYA invested its efforts in changing public perception of boating, by highlighting and promoting the thousands of small boats spread from one end of the country to another that are owned and operated by 'joe average' and are kept on a shoestring budget... a far fairer reflection of the reality of the pastime... and then they could start arguing their case against things like eBorders more easily without it being 'rich boat owners whinging'.....

On top of that, where are the open letters sent to the appropriate ministers and copied verbatim in the magazines?, where are the organised petitions?, where are the RYA blogs rallying support?, etc etc etc.....
 
But Wotayottie, that attitude is exactly why Thatcherism failed. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I was on an exceptionally good wage in a private school, earning more than any of my piers from Teacher TrainingCollege. I saved and put down over a quarter of the cost of my house as a deposit and bought a property that I was well capable of paying the mortgage for. Thatcherism promoted greed such as that which has been evident in the Banks recently and with some individuals in Parliament. I saw an interest rate on my mortgage of 13.5%, with 3.5 million out of work due to Tory policies at that time. There was no World recession, just our governments incompetance, arrogance and an enormous chip on their shoulders against the working class.
I'm not however promoting any other party as God knows who to vote for next, if I ever do. Perhaps Mr Vince Cable MP is the only one I really believe in at the present but I have little faith in the rest of his lot. I only hope he hasn't got any skeletons in his cupboard.
Thank goodness I'm near retirement and I think I may be just financially bouyant enough to see it through o.k. and thank goodness I found Cruising late in life and the great bunch of folks with a similar spirit. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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