Motor boats vs yachts

[roger]

The most recent YM had a not very useful article on this trying to get a meeting of minds. Other postings do show a considerable antagonism, which I tend to share though individual mb owners have in the past been very kind to me.
Outside the Solent problems are much less severe - theres a lot of sea. The problem is also confined to good weather. In bad weather there are few motorboats about and their wakes are swamped by the swell.
I dont think motorboaters realise how pleasant sailing boat motion is (their own motion even on a fairly calm sea looks quite horrible) and so do not realise how badly they spoil our pleasure.
Its amazing just how far a motor boat wake spreads and how much energy it must take to create it. The wakes seem much worse than those of big ships. The large wakes are the visible token of enormous power and fuel consumption. My best guess is of the order of 1 gallon per mile and up. This is something I do find upsetting - such appalling waste!!
I suppose it's just another form of the competition " My wallet's bigger than yours" that we also see in sailing but with my sailing background I do find the waste unpleasant. I cannot pretend that my feelings are disinterested though

 

[Doffy]

Not so my wallet is small old a wrinkly, I MB but love sailing (wife likes gin to stay level) this may be the reason for the high speeds more stability less split gin see the explaination is easy. so try to go a bit faster get a multihull stable and fast no large lumps of polluting lead in the water.

happy sailing i wish it was me sometimes. 15hrs to holland no! i'll stick to 4.5hrs see which one your wife would prefer.

 

[hlb]

You sound like my wife. First you decide why others do things different than you. Then you decide the reason that there doing it. Dream up all the negative thoughts you can, add them together and then everyone but you look like complete ogres.

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think you need a lesson in basic economics. Wealth creation is an essential outcome of a free market economy and anybody earning more than average is very likely to be contributing more than average in taxation and spending more than average on employment creating goods and services. If somebody chooses to spend several hundreds of thousands of pounds on a flashy motor boat, thats several hundreds of thousands of pounds that is likely to go into local economies in places like Plymouth, Poole, Oundle and Kidderminster - the UK motorboat building industry is one of the last manufacturing industries the UK has.
With regard to the motion of sailing boats, I think you've got that one arse about face as well. As a regular motorboater and an occasional sailor, I find the motion of a sailing boat to be an instant seasickness generator whereas although the motion of a fast motor boat, particularly in a seaway, can be uncomfortable, it isnt the sort of motion which makes one seasick and I know plenty of boaters who feel the same.
The statement you make about motor boat wakes is also complete tosh. Generally speaking, wash is proportional to the amount of water displaced and since planing boats actually displace a relatively small amount of water at speed due to the fact that a significant amount of the hull is out of the water when planing, the wash generated is generally less than a displacement boat of similar length near its waterline length speed limit or a semi displacement boat at moderate speeds. This is demonstrated by the fact that fuel consumption of a planing boat generally increases very little or not at all with speed
Incedentally, the same or similar article to that in YM appeared in MBY and one conclusion was that the wash effect of a planing motor boat passing close to a sailing boat is overstated so maybe this so called wash problem is a bit of a hysterical over reaction.

 

[kimhollamby]

Some thoughts

Mike, I think you've come close to touching on the real problem.

Often what happens when responsible owners of planing-hulled motorboats get necessarily close to sailing yachts in relatively confined waters (by close I still mean with a few tens or hundreds of metres, not a few metres), they slow a little to give them a bit more time to call the right course and to show some consideration. Ultimately what they often wind-up doing is dragging a much bigger wash as the boat hits a very inefficient speed. In truth the act of trying to do the right thing in fact makes them cause a much greater disturbance.

Completely up on the plane (at least 18 knots or greater depending on the boat) or off the plane (usually not much more than 6 knots) is the solution; the former may however seem a bit scary when considered against the potential close quarters situations that can develop in the Solent.

In my view there's also a massive difference in the way you should tackle overtaking a yacht heading downwind, where it might be close to the gybe and is also more affected by wash, and one that is hauled closer to the wind. Not all motorboat owners will understand those differences and there's some useful tips that ought to be constructively shared on these forums.

I may get shouted down on this on MBC, or even here, but perhaps there should be some recognised fast tracks to follow in the Solent where it was acknowledged that planing boats should, when possible, use them on transit? However, I also suspect that the experience of ABP Southampton with the much more formal moving prohibited zone points toward the likelyhood of at least a minority of all types of owners, fishing types included, not respecting such a scheme.

I enjoy sailing but have also proven the seaworthiness and flexibility of planing motorboats over the past few years. From that perspective I see little defence for boats of any kind (yachts included) dragging big wake in the Solent close to the anchorages and buoyed moorings off the Isle of Wight. Perhaps a speed zone off the island, similar to the arrangement off Portsmouth Harbour but a bit more than a half mile, would help although given the proximity of the main shipping lane to Cowes it might not be possible in that area.

Zoning is a solution successfully employed in the Netherlands. It should have been used up at Lake Windermere but there you are.

Sorry, I'll stop brainstorming now but it would be good to see other peoples' constructive ideas (ie ones that don't involve catapults, insults or attempts to introduce wholesale bans).

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[castaway]

Sorry Mike. Although I rather agree with yr 1st 2 statements, and I take the line that any boat is a good boat, however on the subject of wash I feel that you simply stated what you would like to be the case.

Most people will agree if I say that a Power boat that is used with consideration causes no offence to anyone.. trouble is of course that a) By there very nature they attract a "certain type of person" and b) Its just to dead easy to get into one and "drive it around" causing irritation to all and sundry.

Many motor boats are in the next county by the time their wash is rolling someones gunwhales under, so they carry on in oblivion

I tend to compare bad Power Boaters to noisy neighbours.. they can never understand why people get upset with them and then get all defensive when its pointed out.

Regds Nick

 

[roger]

I take your point that GB can build motor boats successfully and sell them while we dont seem to be able to make sailing boats commercially. Yes this is a source of wealth creation.
I must also grant you the point that different people can tolerate different types of motion. Motor boat owners seem to tolerate a high speed vertical motion relatively well while sailors are much happier with a slower more gentle motion.
When a motor boat goes by a sailing boat the sailing boats motion changes to a very abrupt shaking which we find uncomfortable. It shakes the boat so much that the wind can be lost from the sails, the boat's speed drops considerably and, as another correspondent pointed out, dangerous involuntary gybes can be caused. It usually takes a minute or more to recover from a close motor boat bypass - that is before the sailing boat is back on course and up to speed again. These effects are on occasion caused by a motor boat that veers from a direct course just so that its driver can take a closer look at the sailing boat. This is particularly irritating.
Returning to the fuel situation. At a gallon to the mile or more we are talking about using a ton of fuel over only 250 miles. I find this quite dreadful. I feel we should probably join the rest of the EU in charging duty on marine diesel. I really cannot see any justification for subsidising such waste - can you?

 

[Bergman]

As a raggie I suppose I ought to agree, but frankly I can't.

There would appear to be a need to educate some motor boat drivers about the limitations of sailing boats. The owners comments in the YM article I think clearly illustrated this.

What I really have an issue with is the idea that fuel is subsidised.

It isn't

The fact that no duty is charged (although VAT is) is NOT a subsidy.

Duty is a form of taxation. Taxation is a means by which Government funds spending. It is not a punishment from God, a means of social engineering or a mens of expressing disapproval of particular behaviour.

To advocate using it as such only invites action to disadvantage everyone and profit no-one.

Its all very well to sneer at high levels of consumption by a power boat, but perhaps you should consider aircraft. Is Concord really necessary. Do people HAVE to go to Spain for holidays. Why not tax aviation fuel, look how many lives would be saved in not having plane crashes.

Clearly a nonsense argument but that is where your line of thought will lead.

 

[ToMo]

Hasn't everyone had enough of this silly bickering yet, I for one am heartily sickened by this 'us v them' nonsense.....perhaps there is a a case for closing all the seperate formums down and just have one.
Call it "Floaters United" or something.
TôMö

 

[Doffy]

Tupperware oil users

Have you ever considered how much of a wash and hump a yacht going thro moorings downwind does, you seem to forget that you too make a wash, causing irritation to all.
As for fuel usage i do admit that oil use is high, but have you considered the many tons of oil your boat manufacturer needed to use for your tupperware boat, how do you think plastics are made.
long live the tree?

 

[ParaHandy]

However much tax paid or wealth created by your typical motor boat owner is no justification for his/her behaviour. And that applies if a yacht owner.

 

[Guest]

Roger, unless you are talking only about the very largest of powerboats your estimate of a gallon / mile is a bit much and as for wakes it really depends on the type of craft. We have a RIB and at 30 knts it puts up about a 6" sharp pointed wake which doesn't bother anyone accept yotties who think that at that speed its got to be bad but if I reduce her speed to 6 knts I can put up a 2 foot rolling wake which shakes the G & T's off the tables. Generally if a boat is built to plane then in that condition theres a very small wake, but in the same boat if you reduce speed the props which are normally large both in pitch and dia dig a bloody big hole under the stern and create a huge wake. I know and have experienced the "Solent" I've said so on this forum, I think your all just a little bit do-lally down there, being cut up by a powerboat or a yottie that doesn't have a clue about ColRegs is just as bad as each other. By all means put down a powerboater because he hasn't the sense to pass you safely or a yottie because hes barreling in on your portside and hurling abuse with it, but dont do it because you think he has more money than sense. Lets all try to get on here and educate those boaters we believe are not doing things correctly. I leave you with some thoughts.
Ramsgate Lifeboat
Weight: 27.5 tons
Engines: 2 x 808hp
Range: 250nm
Fuel Cap: 900 galls
Speed: 25 knts
I make that 3.6 Galls / mile (without safety margine)
I don't be-grudge them that!
Do You?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by peter_aird on 22/07/2002 01:04 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ParaHandy]

Re: Some thoughts

Hmmmm Kim, the slow speed handling characteristics of a motor boat are a fact of life which you would expect the driver to be aware of. A boat moving at planning speed towards or in close proximity to much slower boats will always be inviting trouble?

Being as I am thoroughly cynical of anything this government does, its fiddling with things that aren’t broke until they are, where is the evidence that power boaters have a manic minority who cause “incidents”? You won’t find any in the RNLI statistics/station reports nor in any of the CG station reports either. Wash, in my view, doesn’t wash as an example of unsocial behaviour (sic) requiring regulation of leisure craft. If you wish, read the experience of one boater at the entrance to LeHarve – he was nearly sunk by the wash from a ferry. (MAIB) That is what you would describe as a "wash" incident.

For whatever reason it is convenient for the MCA to paint the <idiot gin palace with gps, bonus burning hole in pocket of City trader> picture. Why?

Here’s some more thoughts:
The justification for shutting the Pentland, Oban and Tyne CG stations was that the MCA’s CCIS system would so improve communications that physical presence by a CG was not necessary. Furthermore, as the system was rolled out, CGs would be released for “education and training” of leisure craft users and, by 2002/3, the results of this would enable the MCA to report on the necessity or otherwise of introducing legislation (MCA Business Plan – the One Stop Shop). Suppose, like many another HMG IT plan, no such productivity gain has occurred (or was ever expected) which leaves the MCA unable to fulfil (another) of its key objectives? You could, could you not, just peddle subjective perception for objective fact to suit the government’s purposes?

One more thought which came from Lord Donaldson who said "imagine the behaviour of car drivers if there was no way of identifying the car" and apply that to boats..........food for thought?

 

[KevB]

Oh dear. Not another one......

zzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzz

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Some thoughts

Your healthy cynicism of government intervention strikes me as exactly that - healthy. I'm with you all the way. My fast lanes suggestion was, in part, tongue in cheek although I was perhaps more serious about the Isle of Wight speed limit idea. That too in reality would be a waste of time because, like so much legislation already in place, it would never be enforced. UK governments of all shades have cut back on-water policing, they have not invested in the Coastguard and they have always relied on charities for a substantial part of their rescue resources.

+++Hmmmm Kim, the slow speed handling characteristics of a motor boat are a fact of life which you would expect the driver to be aware of. A boat moving at planing speed towards or in close proximity to much slower boats will always be inviting trouble?+++

Point I was making was simply that this might not just be about people being silly. There may also some wash rage being caused by people trying to be sensible and just plain getting it wrong. The point at which you slow down is often the point of highest wash generation - and if you don't drop all the way down straight away that's when it gets a bit tippy for everyone.

"A boat moving at planing speed towards much slower craft" could be a dictionary definition for the Solent. For example I was interested the other day to see, from the Red Funnel perspective, just how close to sailing yachts the Red Jet fast cats get; being realistic, they have little choice in some parts of Southampton Water and the Solent even on a moderately busy sunny weekday out of school holidays. Actually, I guess the thing we should be focusing on here is that there are few if any direct collisions, certainly none that I am aware of, in such circumstances. That's more than can be said, for example, when you set 1,600 yachts the task of racing one another around the Isle of Wight and yet those risks seem acceptable.

I think it's also worth pointing out that there is no training for wash control; our voluntary schemes have had to play catch-up with emerging changes in boating for a decade or more now and wash has not been on the agenda at all until very recently. Okay, a lot of it is common sense and therefore do we even need to include it? I think there are some of us who used these types of boats a lot who could assist less experienced people to better understand the ways in which wash can be minimised for any given situation. That might even apply to some yacht owners who use the Hamble River or who indulge in the race for the Port Solent lock.



kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: wash

I agree that a planning boat makes far less wash, Its the 50 footer doing 10-12 knots that cause the problem.

In Plymouth this weekend our rubber dinghy was totally swamped whilst we were boarding it when a large very inconsiderate powerboat passed withing 30 yds of us at about 10 knots. The wash was huge and almost vertical and soaked all our clothes and baggage as we were unloading to go ashore.

This was typical of why people complain about the ignorant and inconsiderate motor boaters, who unfortunately damage the image of all power boaters - the majority of which I am sure do try to avoid this kind of incident.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: wash

Chris, I agree with you entirely. I have had occasion to hurl expletives myself at boats passing through anchorages and moorings at excessive speed. I think what we have here is 2 separate problems, wash from excessive speed through moorings and wash from boats passing close to each other in open water. There is no excuse for the former but the latter is a more difficult issue

 

[Mirelle]

Re: wash

Yes, wash at moorings is really unacceptable, and can be caused by all types of craft, although generally it is only the more modern sailing boats that cause it when under power, as the old ladies have smaller auxiliary engines!

 

[KevB]

Yahoooooo

I think you have hit the nail on the head. There should definitely be speed restrictions around anchored boats (as long as they are anchored away from the main channel/thoroughfare or in a recognised anchorage and showing the appropriate black ball). This should include all vessels whether power or not.
Out in the open water common sense should prevail.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ad Lib...

...was the name of the motorboat that passed us yesterday afternoon at a range of approx 15 meters. Close to Hamble Point buoy, we were doing maybe 3 kts while the main was dropped. They were doing perhaps 15 kts. The degree of hanging on which my wife had to do to stay on the cabin top would have taxed the biceps of a baboon.