more pod drive systems on the market

[BartW]

just read an interesting article in MB&Y dec issue,
that ZF systems is going to supply pod systems (similar to zeus) to Yanmar and VW marine,
Yanmar also announced the launch of smaller (less then 450HP) and bigger (up to 1200HP) pod systems
Is this a sign that this technology is going to be more widely available and accepted on pleasure boats ? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[goboatingnow]

The Zeus system is the ZF system. Seemingly Cummins mercruiser didnt own the rights to it at all, merely had an excusive for a period of time and that time had expired. So its german technology after all.

 

[Latestarter1]

No not actually German technology. ZF Marine is mainly Italian technology owned by Germans.

Tony Jones has written an article in European Boatbuilder which covers much of the story very well.

Cummins Marine came up with the concept in 1992. However as any pod drive requires an electronic engine, technology was 'banked' awaiting lanch of full authority electronic engines.

However when CMD was formed the Zues system was back on the table. Mercruiser developed the lower leg and logically contracted ZF to do the gear box drive head with Cummins taking the lead on the eletronic systems.

Mercruiser have always had a 'thing' about sharing their drive systems to get low unit costs. When Brunswick told Cummins and ZF that they intended to sell Zeus to third parties there was friction. ZF saw the take up of pods taking bread out their mouths as the selling gearcases to Mercruser at high volumes and low margins would have an impact on their business model.

ZF fought their corner and theatened to go head to head with Mercruiser in the pod market with a 100% ZF deloped product. Brunswick rolled over and cut a deal which allowed ZF to market the whole line of Zeus products and get a licence fee in return as well a retaining low unit costs on ZF sourced parts.

Cummins lawyers are still battling with Brunswick over the ownership of the control software which they developed such as 'Skyhook' and the algorithims which make the joystick so effetive. The prospect of allowing Cummins developed controls to to be used by CAT would be a cultural horror story.

There is far less concern over Yanmar.
The BMW based BY is a full authorty electronic engine and will work well with the all ZF developed pod. Wheather Yanmar have the recources to develop electronic features competitive with CMD is another matter. The big selling LP, Toyota base engine is not compatable end of story. The new 380/440/480 LY3 quasi electronic engines have suffered very critical press in the U.S as being technically inferior to Cummins QSB and Volvo D6.

Traditionally loyal Yanmar builders are dropping LY or offering QSB or Volvo as an option. The LYA3 will require totally different elecronic integration with Zeus than the BY as the controls are incompatable. Currently a Yanmar dealer has to have dignostic tools compatable with BMW, Yanmar and Scania base engines, then you have to add diagnostics for two pod control systems...........

Guess who pays in the long run!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

apparently the Volvo IPS is also done by ZF, or is it???

 

[BartW]

Lateboater gave a clear and interesting explanation on the position of ZF systems.
I always expected that a lot of politics where involved in this marine engine market. some of them are explained here very clear.

Its a shame that Yanmar doesn't have a consistent solution for the poddrive controll systems,

I am really surprised that Merc was not able to develope their own pod drive completely in house, they are such a strong player, both financially and commercially, even if they didn't develop the technically best product, they have the strength to sell it succesfully worldwide.
Its amazing that such a strong group is compromised in such a license story. IMO

I've alway's been very interested in these marine drive technolgy's thats why I am so excited when something really new appears
The new ZF 450 HP or ZF1200 HP might bring a completely new wave in to marine drive systems if marketed the right way IMHO

 

[Latestarter1]

Bart,

It all gets even more intriguing.

Just found out, Cummins lost the battle with Mercruiser over the controls stuff. Argument was that most development done during existence of CMD agreement giving Mercruiser equal rights to controls software. Therefore when you when you purchase Zeus from ZF you get the whole bundle CMD controls software as well! I thought it was odd when Cummins suddenly removed Scott Patrohay as CEO of CMD last year. However they replaced him with a clown of equal stature, Alex Savelli.

Politics aside, CMD are launching a brand new outdrive leg next year with a planned capacity of over 500 Hp. CMD will launch a new QSB485 version with Axus to kick start the season giving all the same functionality as Zeus . This is only my own conjecture, but ZF’s own outdrive was a nail and they have been out of the business for years. Mercruiser have known for some time that their supply agreement with Yanmar was coming to an end and Yanmar was doing their own thing.

I just wonder if the Zeus/ZF agreement may just be part of another piece of work on outdrive systems. Yanmar would stay a customer using this leg for LY3 and CX engine which their ZT30 drive cannot accommodate and get the benifit of Axus!

 

[BartW]

hey thank you for that,
you seem to know quite a lot of background info about this industry, what's your connection ?
Coincidently, Yesterday I became friends with a productmanager for outboard engines from mercury who's working in the european distribution center in Belgium. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Will tease him with this info.
Do you know the firm answer to poweryacht's question ?

 

[DHenson]

Does anyone know of any large 50' plus full displacement yachts that are utilizing or experimenting with the zeus pod drive? Are there any inherent problems with the pod drive on a full displacement hull? I would be very interested in a Nordhavn 55 or a Seaton, or Kady Krogan 55DH with the zeus pod system.

 

[Nick_H]

To turn the question round, are there any inherent advantages? The selling points for IPS/Zeus over shafts are mainly efficiency based, ie. increased speed and/or better fuel consumption, and that's because of the angle of thrust, and reduced stern gear drag. I think those benefits would be minimal on a boat travelling at displacement speeds.

Shafts take some installing and setting up, but are then generally quite problem free.

 

[DHenson]

There's also the advantage of less room needed in the engine room, thus allowing for expanded room in the living spaces. Lower cener of gravity is also a benefit as is increased room for tankage.

 

[NEB]

Volvo IPS was developed entirely in house with no involvement from ZF. Also Volvo do not share their outdrive / pod technology with anyone as they like to say that the entire package is designed, built and serviced by one company.

 

[MapisM]

Mmm... the main advantages are actually others, on full displacement boats.
In no particular order:
1) docking maneuverability;
2) steering control in following seas or strong currents;
3) self-tug capability, with same thrust in reverse as in forward.
Besides, hydraulic ones - albeit slightly less efficient - allow also:
A) continuous prop speed control, also below idle engine rpm (making variable pitch props unnecessary);
B) extremely flexible (and soft mounted) engine placement, not necessarily centered;
C) elimination of the gearbox.

Btw, when you asked about Zeus on 50' plus full displacement boats, you actually meant generically azimuthing drives, not Zeus specifically, I guess.
The pic below shows the single drive of a 65' oceanic steel trawler, if you see what I mean. Rated for continuous unrestricted usage at max power, with life expectancy matching commercial heavy duty engines.
Zeus and IPS are just children's toys in comparison!