More Bio Diesel D3 scaremongering

[DAKA]

Any Volvo Penta D3 engine owners best drain a little oil out so as to keep the dipstick level @ 2/3 full.

This will allow your engine oil level to self fill from the unburnt chemicals in the bio diesel that is being added to your fuel tank.

If the un burnt bio diesel is allowed to overfill your engine then your engine will manage to run on the overspill.

Your engine will be hypercharged, over rev and will not stop even when you take the throttle off and remove the keys.

On the bright side you will of course get home that bit quicker but you will need a well fendered berth

If you experience any odd throttle control, such as not slowing down when you expect then shut the engine down, check oil level and drain a little out.

I am not 100% sure that this also applies to other Volvo Penta electronic controlled engines such as the D4 and D6 along with other manufacturers ???

I dont have Volvo Penta in my boat but I still intend to keep a close eye on my oil level and run on 2/3 dip stick level .

Please note this is intended as a serious post, apparently it is already happening on current levels of bio diesel .

 

[David of Essex]

Best to ask Latestarter for his views.
David

 

[DAKA]

I ve just done a quick search and it can happen to any diesel engine , it appears that bio diesel will overfill our sumps if we dont keep draining a little , the only way to stop the engine destructing its self through over revving is to block the air supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine_runaway


Same applies for the diesel car owners, run on 2/3 dipstick and keep checking.

 

[Morpheous]

Is this why my 21 year old ad41's apparently never use any oil, yet there seems to be plenty splattered round the engine compartment?

 

[DAKA]

Is this why my 21 year old ad41's apparently never use any oil, yet there seems to be plenty splattered round the engine compartment?

Theoretically UK boaters shouldnt have burnt much Bio diesel yet unless they are running on 'company car diesel' from the forecourt.

Do you add much fuel additive ? I guess that could have the same effect.

 

[Morpheous]

I do use additive, but its only a little, AD41s being quite smoky my conscience forces me to use it! It could well be that they just don't use much oil, its just been suprising.

 

[Morpheous]

Sorry should have also said its standard marina diesel - Portishead marina. I was just having a conversation about the quality of their fuel because my fuel consumption seems to be getting better too. Just had a couple of days away, 5 hours running time + 3 nights worth of Eberspatcher on 70 L
Can't grumble at that.

 

[PaulGooch]

I wonder how cars, that have been running on diesel with some bio fuel manage to survive ? Especially the ones on long life service intervals, where the oil doesn't need changing for up to 24,000 miles.

Pete, the link you posted has nothing to do with bio fuel. The problem of runaway diesels is a real one, although rare. The most common cause is the failure of the turbo seal on the intake side of the turbo. This allows engine oil to be drawn into the engine, along with the air charge. This oil is very hot, as it has been heated up by the turbo, and combusts fairly easily. Turning the ignition off has no effect, as the engine carries on running on it's own sump oil. The engine can also rev to destruction RPM because the "fuel" is not governed or restricted by governors or rev limiters.

 

[Latestarter1]

Bio diesel, unburned componets, engine runaway................

 

[ulyden]

There have been an issue on volvo cars with D3 engine. The oil level have been to high in sump. Don't have anything to do with biodiesel as far as I know.

http://www.thelocal.se/26436/20100504/

 

[burgundyben]

Even if there was this problem with bio diesel (there isnt) it wouldnt affect my old Perkins, they leak far too much!

 

[PaulGooch]

Unburned or not, if stuff is getting past the rings and into the oil, you probably haven't got enough compression for the engine to runaway lol

 

[DAKA]

There have been an issue on volvo cars with D3 engine. The oil level have been to high in sump. Don't have anything to do with biodiesel as far as I know.

http://www.thelocal.se/26436/20100504/

Thanks for posting that which sort of backs up my post but please note it is 6 months old and now dated.
I thought part of the point in a forum is an early warning can be sent quickly.

Technicians are working on several theories of why engine oil is increasing in volume.
Bio diesel is most likely.

Now you can choose to ignore this post, or you can run on 2/3 oil dipstick level for a season or two until you read about a recall by which time your engine could have self destructed.

Your choice..........

 

[Latestarter1]

This was post was made by OP in good faith, however highlights dangers of mixing understanding of technologies employed in automotive and off road engines and this was my response.

'I would have to see the topic as it makes little sense as it is described. Levels of combustion residue going into the oil pan, particularly those from the infintesimal biodiesel element we may recieve.

The BIG deal with Euro 5 LDA (Light Duty Automotive) engines at this emission level is the use of DPF (diesel particulate filter). In order for a DPF to work it has sensors measuring the Delta 'P' in the DPF. Modern engines which have the ability to employ a number of different injection events, generally up to five at the moment, all different levers to pull from noise reduction though to emission control. When the the Delta 'P' reaches a pre set limit due to DPF plugging the ECU triggers a very late, in fact a too late event in the injection cycle, the purpose of this too late injection event is to 'light up' the media in the filter and promote burn off the particulate matter. This is a finely balanced process.

I have seen instances of a poisoned DPF failing to regenerate, ECU continues to carry on injecting fuel in an effort to burn off particulate, to the extent of causing fuel dilution of of the lube oil and rising oil pan level, which in turn leads to further poisoning of the DPF, eventually destroying the engine. One engine NOT a Volvo, if switched off during the DPF regeneration process continues post injection when keyed on again to the extent that the contaminated lube oil passes though the turbo bearings causing classic runaway.

Even when we go to Tier IIIA emissions in boats we are still a million miles away behind Euro 5 levels. Tier IIIB life as we know it will change, most likely to SCR (Selective Catalitic Reduction) lets just enjoy what we have today.'

 

[DAKA]

Thank you Latestarter for taking the time to explain the issue in more detail, seeing as Marine engines dont have the DPF I am happy to agree this was unsubstantiated scaremongering, sorry.

I still have reservations regards Paulgoochs post, Euro5 diesel cars which cover 18 000-24 000 between services could well be affected and many are about to be recalled.

 

[Morpheous]

Good.
So my 21 year old ad41's just don't use much oil then.

 

[Latestarter1]

Thank you Latestarter for taking the time to explain the issue in more detail, seeing as Marine engines dont have the DPF I am happy to agree this was unsubstantiated scaremongering, sorry.

I still have reservations regards Paulgoochs post, Euro5 diesel cars which cover 18 000-24 000 between services could well be affected and many are about to be recalled.

Also takes us neatly to why we need fuel for the new standard for NRMM (Non Road Mobile Machinery). Machinery in this category is moving to Tier III emissions by horsepower node, some engines will require after treatment to meet Tier III. Sulphur has the effect of poisoning a catalyst, I was not technically correct in earlier post when I suggested excess lube oil poisons the after treatment lube oil in exhaust just causes a coating on the palladium blinding it not poisoning it, however still renders it ineffective.

The big deal is that by far the largest market for gas oil is the off road machinery market which requires effectively sulphur free gas oil from Jan 1 2011 for the new Tier III NRMM equipment to work properly and not be subject to expensive damage of the type originally highlighted at the beginning of this thread. In a confused world we boaters just got caught up in the middle thanks to RCD.

 

[PaulGooch]

<snip>

I still have reservations regards Paulgoochs post, Euro5 diesel cars which cover 18 000-24 000 between services could well be affected and many are about to be recalled.

My post was in response to the claim that bio fuel in diesel would cause in increase in sump oil levels, which is clearly not the case Pete. If we're now saying that it's particulate filters that case the problem with some engines, that's a whole different story. I'm well aware that particulate filters do cause problems, i'm also aware that diesel "runaway" is a real issue (albeit relatively rare). Renault DCi engines were the Worlds worst offenders of "runaway", but that was caused by turbo seal failure in the Garrett turbo charger, not particulate filter problems. Particulate filter problems are probably more commonly suffered by Peugeots and Citroens (same engine).

None of which has anything to do with marine diesel engines.

 

[Latestarter1]

My post was in response to the claim that bio fuel in diesel would cause in increase in sump oil levels, which is clearly not the case Pete. If we're now saying that it's particulate filters that case the problem with some engines, that's a whole different story. I'm well aware that particulate filters do cause problems, i'm also aware that diesel "runaway" is a real issue (albeit relatively rare). Renault DCi engines were the Worlds worst offenders of "runaway", but that was caused by turbo seal failure in the Garrett turbo charger, not particulate filter problems. Particulate filter problems are probably more commonly suffered by Peugeots and Citroens (same engine).

None of which has anything to do with marine diesel engines.

Paul just think about it...Mr Particulate filter is complaining because he has indigestion, tells Mr ECM who says I can fix that by injecting fuel so late it is burning in the exhaust, however, Mr Particulate filter says I still have indigestion so dosing with fuel continues exept it is now washing the bores and getting in the crank case. Mr Turbo says I can't run on this rubbish oil it is full of diesel fuel and is making my bearings sore, I give up!

Engine says to Mr ECU don't need you telling me how much diesel I can have, I have found some of my own weeeeeeeeeeeeeebang

Ten years time we will be complaining about the cost of Adblu as well a cost of gas oil.

 

[Morpheous]

Brilliant post

Next time I need to know what my engine is doing I know who I'm going to ask