Mobile Phones @ Sea

[Ross7300]

Yes they're dangerous, unreliable and have contributed to the saving of many lives- ok there are both good and bad points pertaining to the use of mobiles @ sea so maybe it' time there was a proper debate about the issue, and it is an issue!! The water sports market is currently expanding at a disproportionately high rate to that of other leisure sectors and by the very nature of our sport this poses a potentially lethal problem.

At present all documentation from the MCA, RYA & IMO assumes a "basic knowledge" of the maritime environment, however all to often this "basic knowledge" is overlooked by newcomers.

I am currently researching the implications of mobile telecoms within the maritime environment and would like to hear your thoughts and experiences regarding such communication devices. If anybody is aware of any other similar projects please pass their details on.

Regards,

Ross.

 

[Joe_Cole]

I'm sure that a pair of water wings could save life, but it's not the best option.

A mobile phone isn't a VHF set.


Regards

Joe

 

[BrendanS]

Ross

First, welcome to the forums

already responded on mobochat. Not really necessary to post on every forum. try one first, give it a few days, and if no coherent responses try posting on another forum

who is this research for and what are the aims?
Brendan

 

[SteveA]

You might be interested in hearing of a rescue that occurred recently near here.

A yacht set out fron Douglas, Isle of Man in F5 with the coastguard recommending staying in port.

Some time later a Mayday was received from said yacht but before they could give a position the radio went dead - RNLI and rescue helicopter spent 4 hours searching to no avail.

Lifeboat returned to its berth and about 15 minutes later the coastguard received a mobile ohone call from the stricken yacht where they were able to give their position.

The lifeboat immediately went out again and found the yacht after searching for another 3 hours.

Without the phone there is a good chance that the 2 crew on board would now be statistics!

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ross, we've been here before and using the search function will help you find past threads.

IMHO

VHF /Mobile
One to all / One to one
20 something mile range / Range depends on proximity to aerial (none at sea)
HMCG can triangulate VHF signal / Triangulation not possible
RNLI & helos can talk to u on VHF / But not on phone
Ship and shore stations keep watch / So does 999
VHF distress signal has no contention / Phone does.

 

[Gunfleet]

<<A yacht set out fron Douglas, Isle of Man in F5 with the coastguard recommending staying in port.>>
That's a bit odd. How did this advice manifest itself? Gale warning? Postit note in the cockpit?

 

[BrendanS]

Mobile is a useful backup, but who do you think is more likely to become a statistic...those who go out to sea with no experience, no equipment, and a mobile....or those who have vhf, backup vhf, charts, flares, gps, backup gps etc etc and a mobile phone.

 

[Piers]

Given no mobile-operator aerials at sea, and their land aerials are not targetted to transmit to sea, range can be very limited as we know, quite apart from all the other problems associated with mobiles.

However, there is kit that can boost the minute signal of a mobile (from .6watt to some 20watts) and when used with a high gain aerial, range can be extended. How much? Reports differ. And would people go to sea with extra kit in place of VHF kit? I doubt it.

Conclusion? Mobile can only be used as a back-up. The debate has been hacked for a long time. Now, if mobile-operators turned their aerials to sea, that might well add to safety use of mobiles as back-up.

By the way, can you remember when Vodaphone had their Isle of Wight Ventnor (?) aerials targetted towards the Channel Islands. range was huge. But when the CI turned on their own mobile network, Vodaphone had to turn their aerails away....progress?

Piers du Pré
www.playdeau.com

 

[Avocet]

I rarely go far from land and find that a mobile is useful for talking to other boats when not communicating anything essential. There are a great many VHF users (and I don't even sail in the Solent - which is REALLY crowded!) already so anything that can take pressure off the inter-ship frequencies can't be a bad thing!

As for distress - well, I'd try it if I was desperate but a VHF would always be the first option.

 

[SteveA]

When the yacht called the coastguard with their voyage details the coastguard advised that the forcast for the next 12 hours was for the winds to increase to F8/9 - which it did! - that is why they were advised not to undertake the trip.

 

[Gunfleet]

I don't mean to be picky, but you're describing an odd yachtsman. He doesn't listen to the weather forecast. Doesn't check out any published sources for weather forecast. Doesn't notice the gale warning the coastguard will undoubtedly be announcing on ch 16 but *does* call the coastguard to tell them where he's going. Wierd
John

 

[Guest]

Dangerous???? I don't think so. A friend of mine recently got flooded so much so it took out the batteries so none of the radios worked. Mobile was fine though and as there were 6 of us on board we had 6 phones to choose from as well as all three networks.

Now further off shore it would have been a problem but then as the radios were out anyway the epirb would have been the last stop.

Sure it would be dangerous and bloody stupid if you depended solely on mobile phones but hopefully only idiots do that and then Darwins theory comes into play so they won't do it again.

Take it ALL I say!! Phones, radios, flares, epirbs, whistles, Vsheets, kites (yes they can signal people), lifejackets etc etc.

My old man used to say always take a pack of cards wherever you go and play Patience. He reckons if you are anywhere even on the moon someone will lean over your shoulder and say that black 5 should go on the red 6 and then you are saved!! Haven't had to test this theory yet.

Cheers

Derek

 

[dickh]

I have both fixed and H/H VHF on board and I also carry a mobile phone, which I use mainly for chatting with our friends on other boats - much easier & quicker than going below, calling them up on the VHF etc, etc.
Have also found the mobile phone can work up to about 15 miles offshore in the Thames Estuary.

dickh
I'd rather be sailing...

 

[Gordonmc]

Half the problem seems to be the prevalence of thought that because a shipwrecked crew in the Java Sea called home for help, mobiles are the answer. They are not.
"...maybe its time there was a proper debate..." Why?
We know without debate that mobiles cannot be regarded as a first line of emergency signaling. Giving any credence that they can be adds to complacency.
For the record I always carry a mobile and find I get good coverage in the sheltered waters I sail in. Sometimes I can't raise a marina on VHF and get through on the second ring on the mobile. But lets not even hint that they are a piece of safety kit.

 

[colin_jones]

The topic has been aired by most of the major professional and leisure seagoing magazines in the past 2 years. If your research is important enough to spend a bit of time and cash, you will find these articles listed in the publications' indexes and they mostly have a back issue copy service.

One magazine at least, is already doing the research on mobile phones at home and abroad for publication in mid 2003.

It depends on how patient you are.

 

[hylas]

As a full time sailor, a cell phone aboard for me is vital..
As I have to stay in touch with my company by E.mail, I use a MOTOROLA cell phone connected to my lap top computer and a connection through a local Spanish provider ( Movistar) as I'm now in Canaries Islands..
I use the cell phone only to read my E.mails through Outlook Express and then I have all the time to prepare the answers on Word, to stock them on a Disquette and when I can find a Cyber-cafe, to send them..

Fair winds and peacefull anchorages

Alain D'HYLAS

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Ross
first welcome
you nmay have had other posts as i have gathered you have posted this on antoher board.

you say mobiles are not safe. eh?in what way?
they are not reliable? i would say not true. they are not as reliable as a landline but i would not say they are not reliable.

it has been pointed out that the aerials are not pointed at sea. this is not entirley true . the mobile networks know that inshore water users people on boats are high value users will make international calls etc. also people arriving on boats from overseas are high value users so all ports of entry are flooded with signal so people can call in the moment they are sight of land again often overseas calls. i think there is acknowledgment that some strectches of water are useful if covered.

the old analogue systems worked further due to signal being capable of being pumped further. main limitation is phone power ability to transmit to base station not other way round.

the main problem is that what you are dealing with is very fast changing environment. the old analogue would work long distance. lots of fishermen used it. digital slighly less unless sectors pointing out to sea only as the frequency is recycled more often and big tall sites can interfere with adjacent cells, these sites are called boomers. alot of these taller sites are being taken down or the antennae down tilted. to reduce the cell aea as more signal is recycled to increase network capacity. this is less of an issue as the new user rate uis slowing down. the boomer may be less appilcable in the more remote coastal areas but will be the case in the solent where the concentration of cells will be greater.

the next issue is 3rd gen mobiles

in about twelve years we saw the enitre life cycle of the analogue system. that is ubeleivably fast. a technology that revolutionised the way we work is now dead to be replaced with more upotodate version

the new 3g. the cell area is partly based on bandwidth used. hence the coverage area will contract if more users on. this means that on the fringe of the network ie at sea the coverage area cannot be relied upon. if you have signal in a position one day you may well not have another day if there are lots of people taking up bandwidth. exisiting sites are being upgraded to 3G but they are concentrating on prime built up areas at this stage so stick with 2g for at sea use.

a big problem is one of reliance. in the old days if your phone worked in doors you were happy if not you went outside. you looked for a signal rather than expecting one. now people rely on the system. lots of people donot have a landline as they move a lot and it is simpler to have a mobile

as far as i nam concerened a mobile may be useful in an emergency but should not be part of your plan. if you go more than a mile offshore. the networks can be jammed with callers and yor phone has limited power to transmit back to the base station without a booster. i would take the view that they happen to work at sea in some areas. part luck part judgement but rememeber networks chage sites get moved as leases expire or the antennae get down tilted to cope with new cells. ues the coastal cells in remote areas change less than others but for god's sake get a vhf and a licence to use it.
im thnik a debate is not really required.

i would speak to the operators. best to speak to the regional cell planners and find out what their view is on coverage at sea. pm me if you want to know more. i can even give you a site showing coverage of some coastal sites.

Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[charles_reed]

Your headline is probably an oxymoron - mobile phones are OK for use close to coasts but even when using the 25watts of the vhf (an expensive option) the cells don't reach much more than 12 miles from the cell antennae.
I've used mine to call CG on two occasions once when 16 was being worked and once when I couldn't get through on VHF and the girl at Holyhead didn't know how to operate the SSB.
I find the cellphone invaluable and have PAYG SIM careds for Portugal, France, Spain and Italy - finding the cheapest and most convenient way of contacting businesses in the country I'm in and family & friends back in UK.
I've found use of the mobile pretty useless for internet communication (it's too slow @ 9600 baud) tho' better than SSB (even using Pactor II) that only gets up to about 1200 tho' you can reach really vast distances with the latter when propagation is good.

 

[andy_wilson]

You only need enough power to reach the maximum designed cell size, 34Km. Anything more is a waste as the network won't handle a signal reliably if it has to travell further. Network cells are configured according to the time it takes the signal to travel, rather than the absolute range, hence with the advent of digital, calls are cut of rather more abruptly as you leave civilisaton than they were in the analogue days where a call would peter out over a few miles.

 

[VMALLOWS]

But of course they are safety kit......by your own admission.......sometimes you will connect by mobile when no one responds on VHF. (especially if your mast has fallen over). I am by no means advocating that boats should rely on mobiles, but the tendency to simply 'rubbish' them ( I suspect on grounds of 'principle') does grate on me. Also, havn't the airways been a lot quieter recently?
Strange also that the CG often asks if you have a mobile on board, especially in a non-critical incident.

Coverage (on a hand held) is a good 15 miles out from the Solent, and better than that off the French coast.