MOB?sugarscoops

[FlyingSpud]

As always there have been various articles in the Yachting press about the problem of Man overboard and what to do.
The classic manoeuvre is to bring the MOB to the side of the boat, and then there is generally some vague chat about pulling him in, with an acceptance that this can often be far from easy and may involve attaching lines to the boom, sales as a sling and the like.
The modern design of yacht with a sugar scoop or bathing platform seems to make the best place to get the MOB back in the boat from the stern, where it will often only be necessary to lift a few inches rather than a few feet, to get the MOB out of the oggin.
The obvious drawback is the prop, but on a modern sail drive even this may not be too bad, and anyway, the engine could be turned off once the MOB was secured. On a short handed boat, with only one other on board trying to get the MOB in, has no one to steer the boat anyway.
I’m surprised not to have seen this put forward as a safety feature.
Or am I missing something

 

[southchinasea]

A fair observation. I think the movement of the boat in a swell would make
MOB recovery at the stern tricky. I have just bought a lifesling and the chandler
was very keen to sell me a 3:1 hoisting tackle which he used on his own boat and claimed made recovery pretty relaxed.

 

[ChrisP]

All sorts of answers to this one depending on the boat type and the strength of the crew. Everybody works out their own best method. My advice.
Get them to pass over their wallet on the pretext of lightening the lifting load then bugger off to the nearest pub.

ChrisP ;o)))

What do you mean the sea gull in front's walking !!!

 

[ccscott49]

Stern recovery is very difficult in a seaway, with the stern going up and down, it makes it dangerous, better to recover at the side, use a lifesling or heli recovery sling amnd your topping lift and winch, or topping lift and 3-1 tackle.

 

[shamrock]

All sounds very sensible when you talk about it on shore, but get on the water and try it with a fender or lifering. The poor MOB, having first fallen in, now finds himself at the back of a boat, looking up at the bottom of the hull that is trying, every few seconds, to drop x tonnes of boat on his head. Too close, and he's whacked, too far away and he can't reach. Just as you get your fingertips to him, another wave lifts the stern and he falls back, almost certainly under the boat, where if the hull doesn't get him, the rudder and prop have a chance.

It's a bathing platform, great at anchor or for those times when someone falls in in force 0-1 (when does that happen?) but any swell makes it a lethal place to recover an MOB.

Alongside, with a sling and a halyard, where the motion of the boat is much easier.

 

[vyv_cox]

Someone else has already pointed out the major problem with recovery over the stern. Vertical movement of the transom will be more than double the wave height. On our mooring it was sometimes impossible to board from the dinghy over the transom because of motion of perhaps a couple of feet, but relatively easy at the centre of the boat.

We recently carried out some practical tests of our MOB recovery systems. For many years we have carried a small hoisting sling padded with foam and material, attached to a 4:1 block and tackle. The intention was that this would either attach to the boom or to the mainsheet, 8:1 with a purpose made snap shackle at its lower end.

The 4:1 tackle was useless. I could not hoist my wife with it. She weighs 8 stone and I weigh 12. It was pointless her trying to lift me. We could not get a fair lead to take the free end to any winches and even if we had I doubt that either of us could have lifted the other.

The mainsheet was more successful. After trying several alternatives we eventually came up with settings for snatch blocks that would allow a fair lead of the free sheet end to our genoa winches, which incidentally are very large for the boat, self-tailing Gibb 50s. Taking the sheet forward from the boom end to a block at about the maximum beam, then back to the winch, kept the casualty about a couple of feet from the boat side where there was reduced likelihood of being knocked against it. I could lift her without too much trouble but she was very slow lifting me and it was extremely uncomfortable to hang in the sling. I doubt whether it would be possible to do this if the casualty was unconscious. We concluded that the method was the best we had but not very good. Much better if the casualty was wearing a harness.

All of these tests were carried out on a warm summer's day on flat water. The main positive point is that the casualty is held sufficiently out of the water to breathe and kept attached to the boat, where hopefully they might recover a little and help themselves. This would apply in rough conditions, assuming the casualty could put the sling on for themselves, although in waves they might need to be hoisted quite high.

For a husband and wife team, self-tailing winches would be essential.

 

[AndrewB]

I agree ...

The sugar-scoop stern (more of a lip than a scoop on smaller modern designs) is very practical for cruising, both for boarding and safety.

For a single-hander who goes overboard on a lifeline, having this type of stern will surely make the difference between life and death.

It is true that in a seaway the stern of a stationary yacht plunges up and down. Nevertheless, from my own experience I would think that for a fully conscious and reasonably fit MOB, in moderate conditions, it will not be impossible to hold on. Getting bruised is the least of his worries. In practice the plunging goes in cycles: a few deep plunges, then relatively stable for a few moments, which is the time to board. What is really crucial though is to have a firm underwater step, at least a foot beneath the water but more is better, to get started. This is conveniently provided by the boarding ladder, provided it will hold rigid.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: I agree ...

The single hander, just has to make sure the lifeline is long enough if he goes over the bow, to reach the stern and if not he'll have to undo it, or resight it, whilst being dragged along in the water by his boat and when he does undo it to reach the stern, whats he going to hold onto, handrails perhaps? whilst getting to the stern and if he isn't wearing a lifeline, how's he going to swim as fast as his boat. Of course assuming the weather is really nice, I think not, if he falls overboard at a mooring, then perhaps its possible as long as the weather is kind. I'd like to see this done at sea. All IMHO of course. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[steve_cronin]

Generalisations and "You Musts"....

don't apply here.

If you fell off the boat in the marina people would think your crew mad if they tried to "bring you to the side of the boat and rig a sling" and I doubt if anyone here would entertain it for a moment.

But if you were in exposed waters and unconscious your crew would be ill advised to try to re-board you from the stern in a lot of cases. However if there IS no way of getting the casualty back on board from the forward part of the quarter (better than at the widest part because 50% of the rescuers will be able to stay in the cockpit rather than be exposed and vulnerable themselves on a narrow side deck with a boom swinging all over the place AND the freeboard is less there) then there may really be NO alternative. If conscious, then I would venture to suggest that there is more chance of survival if you can get a well timed foothold on the boarding ladder in a trough and haul yourself up ( be aware of the sudden increase in weight due to loss of bouyancy and water in your suit, as you emerge) rather than hang around in a sling under your armpits for hours until some other vessel arrives. Dropping the inflatable into the water here might be a sensible option.

One should not say NEVER recover from the stern because it is obvious that with a boarding ladder present and with the open sterns of modern boats this could well be the common sense place to re-board. The CONDITIONS are what drive the decision so if the stern weren't bobbing up and down I for one would head for the stern and get em to release the boarding ladder lanyard so that I could swing it down myself and scramble aboard before the crew started up a nonsense of booms and jury rigged davits.

The best approach to this is train the crew to be able to MAKE A DECISION. Imposing some hard and fast rules has no place on a boat in this situation and COULD lead to unneccessary delay or complication.

If some RYA "Teaching" publication says "ALWAYS" recover from the side then I would suggest that you throw IT over the side. One might argue that it is necessary to impose these sorts of rules to ensure that the uninformed have something to rely upon. I would suggest that if this is the case on your boat then YOU as SKIPPER are guilty of going to sea with an ill prepared crew so you might just come to grief as a consequence of your own (in)actions.

The bloke who pulls up on a crowded street blocking the traffic to reverse park into a large space which could have easily been entered forwards, onlycausing a minor ripple in the traffic flow, is guilty of the same mis-applied RIGID principle when he says "Oh I was always taught that it is best to reverse into a space" when what he really means is " Although it is better and in everyone's interests for me to get out of the way quickly, it isn't always POSSIBLE to drive straight into a parking space so because of the geometry of a vehicle turning, it is necessary when parking in a limited space to reverse in".

Dragging an unwilling skipper around to the side deck isn't always the best thing to do. Spending some time on the basic rudiments (at least) of boat handling, radio usage and MOB recovery however, IS. After all you don't run a passenger vessel do you? Sadly the recent tragic death in the Solent might suggest that sme do.

Steve Cronin

Educate not legislate

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: Reality

All good points.
It must depend upon the conditions. But I am left with an unfortunate feeling that in anything other than good conditions the chances of, say, a wife alone hauling a husband out of the water if he is unable to help are just about nil.
I just don’t picture in such a case the wife having the calmness to set about re rigging the boom and so on while her husband is unconscious and tied to the boat, presumably being dunked under by every passing wave, and I doubt any preparation of a crew can ever replicate the exact situation.
Has anybody out there any experience of this sort of thing in practice? I would like to know just what happened. My guess is that in practice the wife would stay near the MOB trying to keep his head up, and hope for help. Not a problem in a busy area perhaps, but what about when now one is around? All she could do is send out a Mayday (advantage of DSC perhaps?)

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Reality

Why would you want to derig the boom? Why not just use the topping lift or main halyard, to support a 3-1 tackle, the fact that the halyard will pull the casualty close to the boat is surely an asset and even a small lassy, (I've seen it) can lift heavy objects with a good 3-1 or even 4-1 tackle, especially if she uses a winch aswell. On my boat, there is no other way, with 6' to the deck from water level. I have ladders, stern and side, but oif the casualty isn't able then what do you do? One thing I'm damn sure about, is I would lower the dinghy into the water, leave it on the davits and use that if atall possible. Of course a very good post further up says, you can't use the same techiniques for all occasions, you must modify the techiniques according to the prevailing conditions.

 

[jimi]

Re: Reality

my instructions to my family crew are:

1) Crash stop & remain hove to
2) Chuck the horseshoe & dan buoy at me
3) MOB on GPS
4) Mayday on CH 16

If I am recovered in the meantime I can cancel the mayday.


Jim

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Reality

Not wishing to be pedantic, but is a MOB a MAYDAY?

 

[jimi]

Re: Reality

It is when I'm over the side & my family are trying to recover me!

Jim

 

[bedouin]

Re: Reality

That of course depends both on the conditions and on whose definition of Mayday you go by. In SOLAS terms Mayday covers imminent danger to life.

Most of my sailing is with just my (smallish) wife and myself on board. Were she to go overboard in reasonable conditions I would probably make an attempt to recover her without calling Mayday (either that or B****r off to the pub and dream of the shiney new boat I'd buy with the insurance.

On the other hand if I were to fall overboard I have little confidence in here being able to bring the boat back, or recover me from the water once she had done so. So that is definitely a Mayday. It's better to err on the side of caution.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Reality

Funnily enough your wife said the same thing about the pub!

 

[bedouin]

Re: Reality

Yepp - that's why I'm paranoid about clipping on

 

[kdf]

Re: Reality

An MOB where you still see the MOB is a Pan pan. An MOB where you don't see the MOB is a Mayday.

 

[rallyveteran]

Re: Reality

My dinghy, outboard and fuel weigh about 250lb and my (not unusually strong) wife could lift this with a 4:1 tackle, so we were always confident about her ability to recover me, if I went over. The secret was to get the top block well above her head and for her to bend her knees. Gravity did the rest.

If necessary we could lead direct to a winch, but if this isn't possible directly I doubt if there's a boat afloat that couldn't do it with a snapblock or two.

 

[Guest]

Re: Reality

i've always been taught to use the spineaker halyard as it is on a swivel at the top of the mast so is more suited to lift from over the side rather than straight up. never tried it myself but sounds like a good idea.