Might soon be an owner: A few questions

[wytco0]

I am now starting to actually look at some boats and although I am not there yet I need to check a few things that I am sure many of you have done before. Just in case I find something I really like and I want to buy it.

1. Survey, I am looking at relatively low value boats with simple systems costing in the region of £5-10k. Having had a very bad experience with a house survey a few years ago I tend to be very very wary or surveys now. I am very tempted to not have a survey, instead I will personally do a very detailed inspection on the boat and possible take another friend along with me who is a much more experienced sailor (I am a novice). I know there is some risk in doing this. What do other think? is this reckless or an acceptable way to go.
2. Boat title, is there a way of being sure that the person I am buying a bot from actually owns it?

 

[SlimRick]

Regarding the survey - most insurance companies will insist on a recent survey before you can take out cover.

 

[Ross D]

I have had bad experiences with boat surveyors so I recommend your idea of going over every inch of the boat yourself. But sadly insurers won't normally accept this and will insist on a surveyor they can sue if your boat sinks.

 

[machurley22]

I didn't bother with a survey (£4k value) but had a good look around myself. It's mostly common sense but it would also be a good idea to take an experienced friend. Silkie was in the water and I asked the previous owners to let me see her dried out which I'm pretty sure is more than a surveyor would have done without an extra fee.

Not all insurers require a survey for such a low value boat.

I did have one surprise after purchase but it was easily fixed and I took comfort from knowing that a surveyor wouldn't have spotted it either.

 

[Kelpie]

If you can find an insurer who doesn't need a survey, then probably nothing wrong with doing your own inspection. But getting a friend who knows boats will be very helpful. The two of you are likely to have much longer to spend looking at the boat than a surveyor would take.

Of course, who says you have to have insurance?

 

[Stork_III]

If you can find an insurer who doesn't need a survey, then probably nothing wrong with doing your own inspection. But getting a friend who knows boats will be very helpful. The two of you are likely to have much longer to spend looking at the boat than a surveyor would take.

Of course, who says you have to have insurance?

I am glad you are up in Stornaway if that's your attitude to the need for Insurance.

 

[wytco0]

I am glad you are up in Stornaway if that's your attitude to the need for Insurance.

Interesting... I dont know anything about normal insurance for boats but just like surveys I dont much like insurance, if possible I would go 3rd party only insurance and self insure for anything else. Not having insurance doesnt mean you can avoid responsibility.

 

[Stork_III]

Interesting... I dont know anything about normal insurance for boats but just like surveys I dont much like insurance, if possible I would go 3rd party only insurance and self insure for anything else. Not having insurance doesnt mean you can avoid responsibility.

3rd party is fine if you can get it and the minimum you would need if intending a marina berth any time. Minimum £3 million 3rd party cover is usual requirement. I agree about responsibility, but if you've no assets, responsibility doesn't help the injured party.

 

[Skysail]

The RYA recommends the following documents where applicable:

1. All Certificates of Registry in the Seller's possession relating to the boat current or expired.
2. A properly executed Bill of Sale in a form to be approved by the Buyer.
3. Bills of Sale tracing ownership from the very first owner of the vessel to the current Seller;
4. Builder's certificate;
5. Builder's invoices;
6. Original receipted VAT invoice;
7. Evidence of date of arrival in the European Community;

I think 2,3,4 are best evidence of ownership, an SSR certificates for a yacht proves nothing, and a VAT invoice only proves VAT was paid originally, thought it would be good to have a for a bigger boat.

 

[Tranona]

Third party insurance is cheap and easy to get. All Risks insurance invariably requires a survey to satisfy the insurance company that what they are insuring actually exists and is seaworthy - not unreasonable. The more complex a boat, the more important a survey and you may find the money well spent, particularly if you are buying at the top end of your price range. Making an offer subject to survey gives you the opportunity to find out more about the boat and make sure there are no fundamental faults. The result of the survey may give you the opportunity to negotiate the price downwards if it discovers something that was not obvious when you made your offer - or even withdraw if it is a real dog. Remember you have no comeback on the vendor once you have paid the money.

The sort of boat you are looking at is unlikely to be stolen, but the legal requirements for paperwork are minimal. Expect to see some evidence of a legitimate purchase by the vendor. Normally that is a Bill of Sale. There may also be other records of work done, marina receipts etc to show the vendor has possession. The boat may be registered, but the normal form of registration, known as SSR or Part 3 does not prove ownership, although there is another register known as Part 1 which is a record of ownership.

Suggest you buy the RYA book on buying a secondhand yacht - that will go through the process in great detail. It will cover your questions on the formalities and has a model of the purchase and sale contracts, plus a recommended form of Bill of Sale.

 

[Kelpie]

I am glad you are up in Stornaway if that's your attitude to the need for Insurance.

Merely questioning the automatic assumption that everyone needs to be insured to the hilt.
For a £5K value boat many people would be able to self-insure out of their savings.

3rd party is different as the potential costs are much greater if you hit someone's shiny 50ft yacht. But then you won't need a survey for that.

 

[Seajet]

Does 3rd party insurance cover a crew member lost over the side or their skull disimproved by a fast moving boom, fingers taken off by an anchor chain, etc ?

I've always had full comprehensive insurance; when I bought my original boat back after 3-4 years playing with a different one, St Margarets / Haven as now asked for a survey, which I thought fair enough.

Then within a year or two they asked for another survey, which I thought unreasonable & said so; they replied 'OK no more surveys' ! That was surprising as the insured value is over £10,000 which I've seen mentioned as the cut-off point.

They do insist that boats are wintered either in a marina or ashore, no swinging moorings, but that's fine by me.

I'd formed the impression that they were on the pricey side, but after shopping around last year I found they're very good value !

Never had to use them for a claim, touchwood, but I get the impression they'd be good.

 

[shaunksb]

Does 3rd party insurance cover a crew member lost over the side or their skull disimproved by a fast moving boom, fingers taken off by an anchor chain, etc ?

.

Yes it does.

To the OP

I've done my own survey for the boat I have just bought but did use a previous survey of a boat I had to give me a template for a checklist of all the things to look at.

My insurance on a £10/11k boat was £124.00 fully comp, can be kept in or out over winter, no survey required (22 yrs old) with GJW.

At that price do you need to go third party?



___________

 

[wytco0]

Yes it does.

To the OP

I've done my own survey for the boat I have just bought but did use a previous survey of a boat I had to give me a template for a checklist of all the things to look at.

My insurance on a £10/11k boat was £124.00 fully comp, can be kept in or out over winter, no survey required (22 yrs old) with GJW.

At that price do you need to go third party?



___________

Thanks for the info, your right for that price I would be happy to have fully comp however if they insist on a survey then they effective cost will be a lot higher.

 

[machurley22]

All Risks insurance invariably requires a survey...

I've been insured through Bishop Skinner for 10 years now and at no time has a survey been required.

 

[Seajet]

I have the impression that an initial survey may be requested by insurerers for any boat more than 10 years old.

That isn't the bind it sounds like, if combined with your own inspection and if you're keen & the new owner anyway, a spot of antifouling, replacing anodes etc.

I always suggest to people they take lots of photo's of the boat dried out / ashore, some with a newspaper showing the headline, to prove the date; useful if & when selling the boat later.

Another consideration is the standing rigging; some insurers won't cover this if over 10 years old.

While I and others feel that's too low a time limit, beware that stainless steel 'age hardens' as well as 'work hardens', so if the boat is getting on in years it may well be worth at least replacing the forestay and cap shrouds.

If the boat has a saildrive, be very wary of the huge gasket around the leg, 10 year life and not something to ignore !

This may all sound doom & gloom, but just trying to ensure you get a good boat; a lot of fun awaits, see you out there !

 

[simonfraser]

25k value, swinging mooring 24/7, no recent survey, no prob insuring bot.

i'd take a 'friend' better still some one who is familiar with the make, look round your local marina you may be able to find an owner at the local yacht club.

take a camera and photograph everything, then you can ponder later.

 

[Burnham Bob]

i think its dependent on the price. 4k don't bother - just have a good look which is what i did. but £10k is a different kettle of fish. for that amount of money i'd like a survey to alert me to any problems or at least provide an opportunity to negotaite the price if there was an issue.

as to bad experiences of surveyors, do what you'd do with any professional - ask the expereinced locals who they'd recommend.

 

[V1701]

I wouldn't get hung up on insurance or a survey. Third party insurance is available easily online (e.g. Basic Boat) for standard premiums of £80 or £90 odd & there are also companies who do comprehensive on older boats without a survey, e.g. Yachting 24 for approx double that, so far from silly money. Another good book for doing your own survey is Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenence Manual which has a chapter on inspecting older sailboats and it's a great book to have for maintenance and repairs as well. Do take along a knowledgeable friend though, factor in everything that will need doing to get the boat up to the standard you want & get a reengined one if at all possible.
I'm on second boat now, both bought privately without survey and sold my first privately as well. I think buying privately and meeting the owner gives a more complete picture of the boat and (in my experience) a lot of brokers can barely be bothered with boats of 5 or 10 grand. A few hundred quid spent travelling around to see as many boats as you can is money well spent. Good luck...

 

[Corribee Boy]

Once you have a boat in mind, find out if there's an owner's association or website. Specific information on a boat may be available - for example, Corribees have a problem with water ingress to the mast beam which is then liable to failure, and is significant to replace - gives you some actual things to look for, rather than general evidence of care or neglect.

Good Luck!