Med Which Way

[samuel]

The wife & I want to get to the Med. We decided that the canals were the best route & went ahead & ordered a Hanse 315. Trouble is we have just realized it is 1750 draft. This now poses a poblem :- Allowing for 1750 draft plus say 25mm for extra load plus say 75 mm for deeeper draft in fresh water we end up with 1850 draft.
All the books seem to suggest max of 1800 & only if there is no drought etc. but even the books have errors as one canal guide gives a table showing 1800 for a particular canal stretch but in the description it says depth down to 1400. What I want to know is can I get through on 1850 draft & what way do I go. The wife is resigned to the outside route but this poses a further proiblem. Leaving in May & doing N France is OK but probably head winds etc & not a very good introduction to long term holiday stuff (We are going for 20 weeks )Once we get to Biscay do we visit St Nazaire , La Rochelle Etc or go straight across the bay.? How do the winds go that time of the year? Would it be better to go right across to get a better wind direction & would La Rochelle to Spain be a direct beat all the way?
Once we get past Spain Portugal would be good but if we don't get into the Med in 20 weeks will we be stuck in some dodgy harbour? I understand some Portugese harbours have big swells in the winter so may not be a good place to leave a yacht.
If we can go via the canals Corsica & Sardinia are possible & possibly better sailing
Any comments about the draft. What about bankside parking would I need a 30 Ft gangplank? Would I get half way through the canals & get stuck?


<hr width=100% size=1>Justisla

 

[ccscott49]

Colin Jones is the man to talk to here, about the canals, but if you go the outside route, the algarve coast of POrtugal is fine, with a few very sheltered harbours, no problems. I think your draft will severly limit your route in the canals. and may not be possible.

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[samuel]

Ok so the outside it may be. But now thge question is :- Do we go Brest to La Coruna ( Reputation puts us off) or can we coast hop to La Rochelle & then head for Santander. Although the crossing from France to Spain is shorter this way there is no where to run to below La Gironde & 180 miles beating ( assuming SW winds am I correct?) is probably harder than 300 miles reaching. presumably if the wind heads on the Brest / La Coruna route we could bear off & go for Gijon or Santander. If we end up in Santander is the trip to La Coruna hard work ? I have done a lot of blasting round the S North sea, but then I have always been a day from safety. This trip is a bit daunting

<hr width=100% size=1>Justisla

 

[Gunfleet]

(Colin) ccscott is right, but I think the other Colin's gone sailing. He hasn't posted for a while and he likes to get away by May. Why not look at a pilot or two in the local library? There's an IMRAY on Atlantic Spain and Portugal. Then you can check out the charts in the CA (you do belong to the CA?) and plan your trip from there.


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[Jeremy_W]

If I've read your first post correctly you have 20 weeks to get to the Med. In the Summer not even Biscay produces 15 consecutive weeks of strong SW winds. Rally Portugal '97 had a week of blustery Easterlies for the Biscay crossing. In '94 we motored more than half way from Brest to La Corunna. In October '90, after a severe storm in the Channel we were becalmed in Biscay.



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[alant]

Went down to Gib last September & came back up in March.
Decision for me - both ways - was weather. The traditional 'Pilots' seem to be way out on the expected weather at present.
In September, there were low pressure systems off Spain/Portugal, giving probability of wind on nose across to La Coruna, but High Pressure inside Biscay. So Decided to go across to Brest from Plymouth, rather that down to Falmouth & going way out. We had good 'Easterlies' down to La Coruna. However, from there down to St Vincent, wind was on nose the whole time + 'tide/current' as well (what the hell has happened to the N-S Portugese current & NE winds?). Had good wind from the w/sw along the Algarve, but this gave strong swells across some of the harbour entrances - some of these dangerous to enter, even in daytime & can be closed by authorities.
In March, High Pressure most of way up right out into the Atlantic. Little wind other than across Biscay. Motorsailed to make delivery, keeping relatively close inshore to allow for refuelling. (Vigo has 24 hr fuel berth near fishing dock)
Harbours down the Portugese west coast can be 'very lumpy' from a couple of miles off and into the entrances. Also whole area mined with masses of fishing pots (also unlit fish farms/traps). If weather is at all frisky, would recommend staying at least 10 miles+ offshore, keeping out rather than running for shelter if you can sail. Sines is good in bad weather. After Cadiz, you are virtually committed to go for Gibraltar. If Wind is strong 'Easterly', be careful of inshore fishtraps down to Tarifa, should you attempt to close with shore for shelter.

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[lindsay]

As with most things in life, there is another way. Sail to a Northern French port from the UK and put your yacht on a truck with a reputable French yacht transport company. From memory the top three are Augizeau, Morlin and, I think, Morizeau. Look up the internet for "yacht transport" and you should find them. Send each a fax or give each of them a call to get quotes. They are doing this sort of thing all the time, thoughout the year

Dont get hung up on the language, they are used to dealing with "rosbifs" and "franglais". This way you can be basking in a Riviera port in a couple of days. Two or three days to put up the mast and get prepared and you are just one day from Corsica and its magnificence. If you cannot find their addresses come back on this site and I will look at my records. 3 years ago a 29 footer cost about 800 pounds from Calais to Hyeres near Toulon all up.

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[lindsay]

As with most things in life, there is another way. Sail to a Northern French port from the UK and put your yacht on a truck with a reputable French yacht transport company. From memory the top three are Augizeau, Morlin and, I think, Morizeau. Look up the internet for "yacht transport" and you should find them. Send each a fax or give each of them a call to get quotes. They are doing this sort of thing all the time, thoughout the year

Dont get hung up on the language, they are used to dealing with "rosbifs" and "franglais". This way you can be basking in a Riviera in a couple of days. Two or three days to put up the mast and get prepared and you are just one day from Corsica and its magnificence. If you cannot find their addresses come back on this site and I will look at my records. 3 years ago a 29 footer cost about 800 pounds from Calais to Hyeres near Toulon all up.

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[samuel]

You have made a comment that is the very thing that is worrying me about this trip. You say it can be "Lumpy "for a couple of miles off shore. I have not yet studied the pilots ( But will do) as the intention was to go by canal. However, that seems a non runner due to draft.
All the magazines carry articles about the Chenal du Four, The Raz Du Seine etc etc ( spelling !!)which suggest they are really dodgy areas. But in practice , how difficult.
I was navigating round the Thames estuary for years with just a compass , an echo sounder & a bamboo cane & apart from the odd fright I did OK. Leaving Ostende in a force 8 Northerly was my biggest shock & I dont really want to repeat it with the wife on board ( or come to that with me on board) & in a new boat .
Are these areas really hard to get right if one uses a bit of common sense & just how rough is " lumpy" Are we talking about breaking waves 2 Metres high or are we talking about some large swell. I know I might as well ask how long is a piece of string but is this sailing fairly easy in reality or is it really difficult.
We want to visit as many places as possible so want to do short hops. How changeable is the weather & are we likely to get stuck offshore & not able to get into harbours & end up being stuck offshore for days. I don't mind a bit of heavy weather in my own area in fact I revell in single handed high wind sailing. This is a bit different . We will be along way from home

<hr width=100% size=1>Justisla

 

[Neal]

I can\'t say do it....

I've been through the canal system 4 times now. Last time was in a boat with 1.8m draft. We came through from Pt St Louis to Le Havre via the Marne in November last year. We ploughed the bottom every now and again, but had no problems whatever. Coming alongside was easier than it had been with a bilge keeler of 4 ft 6 in draft .

We met several large Dutch and German boats coming up eg Halberg Rassy 42, Benetaeu 45. They had removed masts (transported by road), had minimal stores etc to reduce draft. They were absolutely confident of getting through.

We said to the professional delivery skipper of the HR " whats your draft?".
"2 metres" says he. "
" But they only guarantee 1.8 metres" says we.
"oh, yes, I meant 1.8 metres" says he.

So yes, I think you'd get through, but I certainly wouldn't guarantee it, and you'd be very unpopular if you got stranded anywhere.

As regrads the outside route, if you've negotiated the Thames Estuary competently without GPS, I don't think you should have too many problems anywhere else. The Thames Estuary is an excellent training ground.

Pilot books always manage to make a new area sound frightening. eg from personal experience: Portland inshore route, Straits of Messina, Menai Straits, Strangford Lough narrows, Holyhead, Langness Point, Corryvrecken, Jack Sound etc, etc.....

Be sensible, plan carefully, be prepared, pick your weather, treat everywhere with respect, and you'll find they're not as doom laden as they sound.




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[alant]

This will obviously depend upon weather & wind direction - imperative you check this out. These are not estuary /Solent waters, with easy access to services etc. As well as the Atlantic swell, you can get a chop on top of this - sometimes 'breaking'. If encountered, these large seas can reduce your speed down to less than 1knt, even with relatively large yachts when on the nose, even if motoring. Since your speed over ground is greatly reduced, your ability to run for 'shelter' & calculate an ETA into a 'safe haven' is a problem - particularly worrying when closing an unknown shore.
We had a good weather window, but 2/3 weeks later, a bigger UK yacht was lost off Coruna, sadly also the owner/skipper, due to reported 'horrendous' seas.
If short hopping, from La Coruna, go South to the Rias - absolutely beautiful & no sign of oil slick in March. Good shelter/anchorage/marina in Portosino - wide Ria. Bayona/Vigo -excellent. Leixoes - extremely friendly & helpful, but dirty marina & difficult to enter (although inside major port) when wind on entrance. (visit Porto from here). Figuera de Foz, Peniche, Cascais, Sines, etc have widely varying ease/difficulties of approach & you should check Pilots - even MacMillan Reed is good for the area down to Gib.

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[ccscott49]

I went Dartrmouth-Falmouth-Las camarinas, 1st may, three years ago. Studied the weather patterns coming in from the atlantic for weeks before, using ECMWF forecasts, and any other information I could get my hands on. Just studied and waited for a five day window, very obvious it was aswell, I still have the printouts onboard. A very pleasant trip across the bay. Weather is the key, study it before you leave, wait in Falmouth if you have to, then go for it.

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[samuel]

Re: I can\'t say do it....

Was that 1.8 m salt water draft or freshwater draft?. Aparently there is about 3 inches difference
You say you touched . What did you do ? Just open the throttle & pray or all stand on the gunwhale.
In theory there should be more water if we go in May as the winter will have topped them up a bit & November has had the summer which suggests less water. Or does the level rise fairly quickly after a bit of rain ?
If we do get stuck what do we do? the only option would probably be to try another route but we would ask at various locks which parts are the best so should get first hand information. In which case we will be at the deapest part anyway. We would look fairly stupid if we got 500 miles & had to turn back. It really is a poser without absolute first hand knowledge

<hr width=100% size=1>Justisla

 

[Neal]

I deliberately went aground at Pt St louis

We went through the first lock, went alongside at Marchants to get the mast down, and gently touched bottom. She was a fin and skeg boat, and, as accurately as I could measure, her actual fresh water draft was 1.8m.

There were a few spots where I could just feel the keel ploughing through the bottom. The peniches do this regularly, so the bottom is generally soft silt.

On one occasion, just North of Epernay, we hit harder as we were accelerating (slowly) away from a lock. We'd gone about 100 metres from the lock when we slowed. She heeld over to port, but kept going. I barely had time to swear, say a boat length, before she straightened up again. We were in the channel, there were no signs, and no 'humps' shown in the Navicarte.

Sorry I can't answer your other questions. It might be worth contacting the VNF - we found them very helpful face to face, but I don't know how helpful they are via letters/ phone or email.



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[ccscott49]

Re: I deliberately went aground at Pt St louis

We went aground there aswell, in port st. louis. We only draw 1.2 meters so it's very shallow just there.

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[tome]

Samuel

I've done the trip across Biscay a few times, once in August and had a great crossing from Weymouth to Castro Urdiales (near Santander). Some of the stuff you read will put you off the Raz du Seine etc for life. Ignore it and follow the pilotage instructions carefully, avoiding heavy weather. You need to study the weather patterns beforehand to pick a good window.

Last year there was an article in ST about Portland Bill. I've sailed around it countless times, and more recently a few times with my wife. If you read the article you wouldn't go near the place and my wife was really annoyed - in her words she wouldn't have dared round it if she'd read this first. She was seething at such irresponsible scaremongering.

Weather study is the key. Go for it!



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[vyv_cox]

Med the easy way

Earlier in the year I bought a book with the title "The Mediterranean the easy way" or something similar, about a couple who took a 35 ft boat to Spain, day-sailing all the way. They comfortably made it from somewhere on the south coast of England to well past Gibraltar between something like May and Sept/Oct. If you want to avoid the direct crossing of Biscay it is perfectly feasible to go around the outside in your timeframe. I can't recommend the book but at least it shows what can be achieved very comfortably.

On the hazards of the French coast, there is no problem at all if you do them at the correct time. Chenal du Four is a massive waterway that presents no navigational problems. Wind against tide will kick up a sea, as with any other tidal place, but it presents no major problems. Raz du Sein needs to be passed at the right state of the tide but there is plenty of information as to when this is and you can wait in complete shelter at Morgat or Camaret until then.



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[Roberto]

Re: I can\'t say do it....

I think the main problem with draft is at the locks rather than along the canal (apart from the odd washing machine dumped in the middle). Locks have a stone/concrete sill at their entrance, either you pass or you go "bonk" and must go back...
Voies navigables de france (vnf.fr ?) should be able to give you some updated info about water levels and clearance.

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[Guest]

You have 5 options:
1. Through the canals.
2. On a lorry from northern France
3.Across the Bay
4.Around the Bay
5.On a ship
With regard to option 1. you seem to have assessed all the potential problems .Option 2.appears to offer a hassle free method of getting where you want to be at low cost in the shortest possible time.Option 3. is daunting.Having done it twice -once in January and once in July- I would want a well found yacht and a strong crew.On the January crossing there was a big swell but no wind and we motored all the way from Southampton to Gib (97 ft schooner).On the July trip the skipper (not me) cocked just about everything up and we had it on the nose all the way.The engine packed up 200 miles out from Plymouth and as it was a 35 foot bilge keeler we soon gave up trying to beat for La Coruna and went into Gijon.On the run to La Coruna the wind speed went off the clock with v.large breaking waves etc.You think once you get to La Coruna you have cracked it but as we tacked into Villa Garcia de Arosa because of yet more engine problems we got 50 - 60 knot winds there as well - not for nothing is it called the Costa Del Morte......(see June PBO ) Option 4.is described by David Teall in his book 'Brighton to the Med' published by the Cruising Association.(You may know him as 'Medman' on the Liveabord Forum.)His experiences are also described on his Website at http://www.geocities.com/yachtretreat/ you may also care to look at Frank Singleton's Weather Site http.//www.franksingleton.clara.net where in an annex he discusses the pros and cons of the various options for tackling the Bay.Option 5.is available through a firm called Peters and May.You sail to Southampton where they crane it onto a ship and take it to Majorca and crane it off.I was quoted about £3,500 for my 8.5 metre fin keeler with a draught of 1.62 metres in salt water.For what it's worth we have decided to go via the French Canals in the knowledge that if we get stuck we always have the lorry option as described above by Lindsay.We are still undecided as to whether to carry our mast on deck or have it delivered by road.My wife retires in July so we could go then but we are going to lay up in nothern France and make a start in the Spring when as you say the water should be at its deepest and the traffic quiet - we hope! Best of Luck whichever way you go.

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[Birdseye]

even if you yourself are feeling "rufti tufti" your wife will not appreciate a rough Biscay crossing. The easiest way to avoid that is to make the shortest practical crossing where you can rely on the weather forecast (a 24 hr forecast will always be more accurate than a 4 day one). On that logic, I would recommend hopping down the French coast to Royan, and then crossing to the best Spanish all weather port at Bilbao. This has the side benefit of allowing you to visit the very attractive area of North Spain.

The Chenal and the Raz are not the southern ocean. The only difficulty is timing, assuming you dont try them in bad weather. And timing is usually obvious in Summer since there is sometimes less traffic on the M25!

When we were in N Spain, everyone we met who had done the direct crossing from the UK had had a pasting.

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