Med Boats "Whats the best de-cal units".

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Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

I am having a de-cal system fitted to a new boat.
Reason for this is that the marina and tap water in the Balearics is so hard with call that when cleaning it leaves the boat looking dull and it will call up all filters for Ice makers and the water system in about a week. Its a constant problem for us.

I have used the Spot free system and it works fine but expensive (see link www.spotfreeh2o.com) I need at least the 5000 version and wonder if anybody knows of other makes which work well.

I am running this system direct to the fresh water tank which is also topped up by the water maker. The idea is that all water onboard for boat cleaning washing machine, ice maker etc will be totaly free of cal. Its that bad where we are that using nothing will wreck a clarifier in a year.
Any sugestions welcome.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

It's the same in antibes. Yep, you wreck a calorifier in about a year. A kettle is all chalky white. All the proprietary filters seem to work though (and are shockingly expensive - I'll try to stock up the new boat with a few years worth at UK prices) becuase getting cal out of water is low tech stuff. In fact I dont even know what brand most of the ones used by the boats in France are
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

[ QUOTE ]
(see link www.spotfreeh2o.com)

[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm.... I didn't look at it in detail, but either the resins regeneration process is a pita with that design, or it can't be really effective. With a boat as big as the one you're talking about, I'd rather try to fit a proper home softener like these ones.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

They are realy effective. but expensive to run when you consider washing down a 100' of boat twice a week

I have also looked at the electronic versions which put an magnetic field oround the fill pipe to the tank ( works off a 220 v socket) however this system is designed to shatter the cal crystals thus stopping them clinging to the inside of pipes, tap outlets and showers.

What I have planned and in discussion with the build team is to have another fill system for the fresh water tank mounted on the garage wall goes like this-water from shore passes through the electronic system and is broken down then through the spot free and the particles gathered then piped to the fresh tank and stored. Boat is washed by using the deck outlets bow, cockpit and fly. Dont know if you have been to Mahon but I have not found harder water anyware else. it's a real problem. we even have to have a back up main water pump for every boat as they just burn out as they try and draw water through the main water filter.
comment apreciated


p.s the electronic system creates no resistance as it is no more than a coil around a pice of 22 or 15mm pipe it has the same effect as placing a very powerfull magnet around the pipe which is just how they have done it in America for years. for central heating systems.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

[ QUOTE ]
water from shore passes through the electronic system and is broken down then through the spot free

[/ QUOTE ]Never heard of such solution before.
Just a thought - since the electro-magnetic system does not remove anything from the water, if it's meant to reduce the filtration burden on the spot free unit, I'm skeptic that it can do any good.
Normally, magnetic systems are used for different (mostly industrial) purposes.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

Yes well this is the bit I'm trying to clarify. Is it worth it at all. It would seem to me that it removes nothing. but for less than 70$ for the unit it may prolong the life of the very expensive filters in the spot free system. and over a planned three years it could pay for it's self over and over.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

[ QUOTE ]
It would seem to me that it removes nothing. but for less than 70$ for the unit it may prolong the life of the very expensive filters in the spot free system. and over a planned three years it could pay for it's self over and over.

[/ QUOTE ]You can rest assured that it doesn't remove anything. I even wonder if the scale particles created by the magnetic system couldn't clog the filtration system more quickly, though I'm not sure about it.
Btw, what "expensive filters" do the "spot free" use?
I assumed it's just a normal resins-based filtration system, and that all it requires is the periodic re-generation (hence my previous comment re the regeneration being a pita: I din't understand how you should deal with the salt tablets).
Am I missing something?
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

Yes we find that due to the amount of use the resin filters just become unefective after a while. They shouldn't but they do so which ever system usualy requires a new filter about twice a year. However thats cleaning charter boats ( Mobile units)and a lot of use. so your point has some validity for the pred. Still want to find something better. as too much time is spent trying to get the boats looking right. and I'm paying for that so it's worth while persuing. I have even gone to filter manufacturers on the web and asked if they can make up a larger version of a spot free but for a couple of units no joy to date.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

I see. Luckily, I never had the problem onboard - for some reason, I always kept my boats in places where water wasn't hard enough to be a concern.
But I do have a softener at home, installed a dozen of years ago or so.
It uses a 25kg bag of tablet salt each month, but that's all it needs, and it's working flawlessly since its installation. The pre-filter (mind, that's the mechanical one which just removes impurities but doesn't actually do the softening job: it's shown behind the spot free unit, on top of the web page you linked) must be opened and washed more or less yearly, but I changed it just maybe twice in in all those years, and it's pretty cheap stuff, 15 quids or so.
Even considering the heavy usage on a charter boat, I'd rather run than walk away from a unit which doesn't work for more than half a season! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
...unless I got it wrong: what else do you mean by "new resin filters twice a year", if that's not actually a replacement of the whole main body?
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

I'd be tempted to fit a home style water conditioner, the type that automatically regenerates ( re-ionises ) the resin by backwashing with saline solution. You would have to fit the resin processor before all of the tankage. The best approach would be to have a single fill point that you connect to the filling point with a hose ie not a gravity fill, and an internal distribution system to the tanks, either manually controlled or via ball check valves. I'd fit one with a capacity measuring control head rather than timed one. Autotrol heads are engineered completely in nylon and other plastics - corrosion free.

Most home units operate under 12v but its AC but this would not be a problem since the only time you would be consuming water as far as the unit is concerned would be when filling so power would be available. At each fill you power up the unit, connect the fill hose ans open her up. If the unit determines that you need a regeneration cycle it would do so automatically as part of the process. You tanks would be filled with softened water. Once you disconnect you are using tank water until the next fillup, no need to worry about the softener.

The problem with hard water is the dissolved solids in the water, magnetic units aren't removing anything from the water, the solids are still in there, they will drop out of suspension under the right conditions, magnets or no magnets.

A small unit costs less than £400 uses 2.2 kg of salt per regeneration cycle. Goes 2500 litres of water between regens and salt costs around £7 per 25 kg. so 25 000 litres of water ( 1/2 a small swimming pool! ) costs about £7 to process.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

Precisely my initial suggestion.
Re.using a capacity measuring (rather than timed) control head, actually most recent control heads do both, starting the regeneration either after X hours (some days, in practice) or Y liters, whatever comes first.
Which would make sense also for a boat application, 'cause a periodic regeneration of resins is recommended even if/when there is no water consumption at all for a long period of time (like in holiday homes).
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

I wonder if the extreme hardness is due to desalinated water being used out there. here in corfu the pontoons have 2 water supplies, one for boat washing etc which is rock hard and free, the other is potable water which is fine, but metered ( but reasonable price). if you had a similar system (just wondering) it might end up cheaper using potable water to wash the boat?.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

Now you got me thinking. Thanks! That's exacty the thing to do - fit a domestic proper unit that self-re-ionises, under decks. Connect the dock water inlet to the unit (via a nice fitting in the deck) and have a deck outlet from the unit for hosepipe washdowns. And of course fill the boat freshwater tanks from the unit. And carry a few sacks of salt, and you're all set for the season. These units will easily fit on even a medium sized boat, and you could fit the very biggest on a pred92. Good solution, thanks, much better than those pathetic in-line filters that you put in the dock hose line
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

You could of course use the deck washdown outlet just to run a hose from it to the traditional deck tank inlets. Means in an emergency that you are not tied to the softener, might keep the traditionalists happy when some time in the future you sell up. It would certainly simplify the installation. Could go in a locker somewhere.

Running softened water through systems with previously hard water ( or filled directly ) tends to dissolve the deposits and clean up the system anyway. I know that our previously gummed up house water system is getting cleaner and cleaner all the time these days.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

All well and good, but I don't actually see a big added value in such installation, once we agree that a proper softener is the way to go.
You could simply connect it to the water circuit, with a return line inside the tank.
After filling the tank, you open the softener line and keep it circulating for a while, job done.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

I can see good sense in the way nimbus and I are proposing to do it, Mapis. On a boat you want (when docked) to have full water tanks for domestic use, plus the street main pressure for the hosepipe washdown. So I'm thinking do as is proposed in ...69 and ...98 above. That way, you get street main pressure for the washdown hosepipe, instead of using the boat's water pressure pump.

If you have tech problems with the softener, just bypass it, cos it isn't an essential link in the chain

You would need to make sure the water softener only did its automatic regeneration when the dock hose is connected, but that's fine becuase you'd turn it off when at sea
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

[ QUOTE ]
plus the street main pressure for the hosepipe washdown

[/ QUOTE ]Point taken. There's another detail I'm thinking of, but I'm due for a meeting now, I'll post it asap.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

Yep thats exactly what I am arranging it's only the unit to sort out water comes from the shore into the inlet of the water unit mounted garage wall.( Still to decide) and then straight to the tank. All washing down water then via deck wash system, washing machine and boats internal water taken from tank. tank topped up at sea by water maker again so great water. normal water deck fitting not used. All I have to do is find the right system maybe the residential type is the way to go. By the way we get one type of water in Mahon the hard one tastes alright in tea. but sets like cement.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

[ QUOTE ]
You would need to make sure the water softener only did its automatic regeneration when the dock hose is connected, but that's fine becuase you'd turn it off when at sea

[/ QUOTE ]The above is the bit I don't like, for two reasons:
1) you need to remember to turn it on and off;
2) as I said previously, modern control heads of home softeners work on both time and capacity, and by turning it on and off you can obviously miss the time-scheduled regeneration. Possibly, with electronic heads you might loose also the history of "consumption", unless they have a backup battery - not sure about that.
For these reasons, even with the connection suggested by nimbusgb, I'd rather keep a line from the boat water circuit into the softener (with no outlet line returning to the tank, in this case). This way, you can leave the softener always turned on and totally forget it ('cept for the salt of course). Stby consumption is ridiculous anyway.
 
Re: Med Boats \"Whats the best de-cal units\".

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would need to make sure the water softener only did its automatic regeneration when the dock hose is connected, but that's fine because you'd turn it off when at sea

[/ QUOTE ]The above is the bit I don't like, for two reasons:
1) you need to remember to turn it on and off;
2) as I said previously, modern control heads of home softeners work on both time and capacity, and by turning it on and off you can obviously miss the time-scheduled regeneration. Possibly, with electronic heads you might loose also the history of "consumption", unless they have a backup battery - not sure about that.
For these reasons, even with the connection suggested by nimbusgb, I'd rather keep a line from the boat water circuit into the softener (with no outlet line returning to the tank, in this case). This way, you can leave the softener always turned on and totally forget it ('cept for the salt of course). Stby consumption is ridiculous anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - Not really. These installations only use power to calculate the amount of water passed through the unit and then to control the motor driven regeneration valves. If you keep track of how much water you use you could manually trigger a regeneration every n thousand litres of capacity. You only need the unit turned on when filling or washing down so that the capacity processed can be tracked by the control head.

2 - As for time the 'timed' regeneration. To ensure that the contents of the resin bottle don't turn foul this only needs to take place every 3 months or so. The unit is going to regen much more frequently than that.

these units store data in non volotile flash memory so retain data through power cuts at home.

This looks promising Integrated softener

Ideally a simplified version of the firmware in the control head would be ideal. Hmmmmm, little project for someone /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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